Vicipaedia:Taberna/Tabularium 6

Disputationes antiquae Hoc est tabularium antiquarum disputationum. Non est recensendum. Sententiae hic collectae inter dies 19 Iulii 2007 et 16 Octobris 2007 scriptae sunt. ❮ Tabularium 5 Omnia tabularia Tabularium 7 ❯

Tituli: praeses versus praesidens

L&S implies praeses is Augustan and says praesidens is post-Augustan. Is there a reason we're preferring the latter? IacobusAmor 17:07, 20 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

The Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't even suggest praesidens --Harrissimo 18:07, 20 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

And Harvard diplomas call the President of Harvard College its praeses, as does the fanfare commonly known as the "Harvard Anthem" (by John Knowles Paine, 1843): "Domine, salvum fac praesidem nostrum, nostrum praesidem, et exaudi nos in die qua invocaverimus te" (http://www.aliquis.plus.com/NG/HarvardAnthem.mp3). Rather stirring, don't you think? (The performance, being outdoors, with what amounts to a pickup orchestra & choir, may leave something to be desired.) In the middle of each iteration, just after the second praesidem, the music has a harmonic change that anticipated by a couple of decades a nice juncture in the theme of the fourth movement of Brahms's first symphony. IacobusAmor 18:21, 20 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Who is preferring? (I haven't kept up on all the latest presidents' edits . . . ) I, for my part, am not preferring praesidens. Viva praeses ( appellatio tantum, not Georgius Ambulans =] ). --Ioscius ^(disp) 04:51, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I, too am supporting praeses. --Harrissimo 09:32, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Me too, but somebody has been preferring praesidens, as a search will show! Iam est nobis commentarium Praesidens. IacobusAmor 12:01, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

A damned lot of entries, man, this will take me all weekend.--Ioscius ^(disp) 14:18, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I will help you :) --Harrissimo 14:45, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! =] --Ioscius ^(disp) 15:16, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Creativae communes.

Quaero traductionem texti licentiae operarum creativarum communium. Interrogo quid facitur in libris latinis quo istam licentiam impendant. - Waelsch

Nescio. Da exemplum in lingua alia, et petiturus (vel conversurus =]) ero.--Ioscius ^(disp) 04:49, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Pagina fontium et quaestio de pagina auxiliaria

Ecce "The Latin Library" [1].

Nescio an iam est in Vicipaedia id nexus. Aliquando in pagina auxiliaria cum nexus huiusmodi fui, quae nondum reperire possum (nescio an propter stultitiam meam aut propter inertiam in lingua latina). Propterea quaestionem habeo: Estne possibilis indicem nexum auxiliarium in paginam primam aut paginam "adiutatum" transferre? Aut universaliter in locum ubi etiam schwachmatici in lingua latina id invenire possunt? --Partonopier 08:57, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Finnish Names - EPISODE II

Salvete! IacobusAmor found me this table to use for the genitive of Finnish place names, which I have updated slightly. Firstly, do any of you disagree with any of the table's suggestions and secondly, there are a lot of places in Finland which have names ending in (-aa or -ää) which I don't know who to make into the genitive, one instance of (-uu) and also there are two Swedish town names (Jakobstad and Raseborg) which I'm not sure about. I could, of course, just use their declinable Finnish names and put the Swedish ones in brackets, but that goes against all of the other Wikipedias (except Finnish.) --Harrissimo 16:39, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

That suffix -borg probably = -burg, which in Latin is often (if I'm remembering rightly) -burgia. And is -stad similary -stadia? There's a table of these things somewhere. IacobusAmor 19:15, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I'm definite that -stad is -stadium, because it's in a lot of German and Swedish place names. Was this table in Vicipaedia? --Harrissimo 20:10, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Hahaha, I found the table! It's here, at the Translation of place names section. So, hypothetically, the names would be Jakobstadium and Raseburgu(m/s) However, the question remains: are we backtracking by latinising an unsourced place name? --Harrissimo 20:21, 21 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

How do we explain Kronstadia (not Kronstadium)? or is that an inflected form in Finnish? IacobusAmor 15:27, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Where have you seen Kronstadia? When I search there are only a few hits... --Harrissimo 15:34, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Google has six hits, and they all appear to be in Finnish. IacobusAmor 15:53, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

That probably means it is just an inflected form, then. --Harrissimo 22:54, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all occurrences are partitive/accusative forms (Finnish nominative being Kronstad, i.e. the Swedish name as such). --Neander 00:56, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Do you agree with this table Neander? You suggested in another discussion that we should use 'Ekenäsii' rather thank just 'Ekenäe' --Harrissimo 10:27, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Well, sometimes it might be expedient to resort to morphological suffixation (e.g. Aboa < Åbo = Turkua < Turku; cf. Missuria < Missouri), sometimes it might be better to resort to the schema or phonological gestalt supplied by final elements of the word. (Sorry for the linguistic jargon!) A few comments off the cuff: Hanko: The problem with Hanko, -onis is that the -ōnis suffix presupposes a long final (Hankō) – Japanese Hokkaidō, -ōnis is a case in point – but the Finnish Hanko ends in a short vowel (Hankŏ). Theoretically, then, Hanko should be Hanko, Hankinis (cf. cardo, cardinis), but this may be nitpicking. Perhaps a morphological solution (Hankoa, -ae) is better (though it smacks of Hawaiian ... :-) Well, I really don't know. Maybe Hanko,-onis does as well as Kaskinen (below). Forssa, -ae looks good. But words ending in -ä are a bit tougher. Theoretically, the final -ä (e.g. Mäntsälä) is, as a matter of fact, -a which goes automatically to -ä by dint of the Finnish vowel harmony. Maybe the Latin representation of Mäntsälä &c could be somewhat abstract, viz. Mäntsala, -ae. Anjalankoski: the model could be senapi, gummi &c which tend to be indeclinable or -is &c. (So, probably OK.) Kaskinen: gen. Kaskinenis ... well, why not (though in Finnish the inflectional stem is Kaskis-, that's why it looks a bit weird). Närpes: gen. Närpei would presuppose Närpēs, but the /e/ is short in Swedish. So, to nitpick again, Närpes should go along with miles, -itis (but Närpes, Närpitis may be funny-finicky). Maybe I'd say Närpes, Närpesii (but no nominative à la Närpesium!). Pargas: those who know languages often toy with the Hispanesque Las Pargas, but that won't help us – just trying to be funny while thinking ... – well, maybe I'd try Pargas, Pargasii as well ... though Pargas, Pargae doesn't look as bad as Ekenas, Ekenae (owing to the fact that näs is a word in its own right, meaning 'cape'). --Neander 20:34, 24 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

It's lucky I had such bad examples! I have made a second draft of the table, trying to make the names fit in to latin declension as much as possible. On the article pages I will try to do "XYZ (-zyx) (IPA: ʒɠɶɤ)" so the reader won't become confused. Can you suggest anything for -aa, -ää and -uu? --Harrissimo 22:14, 24 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe Akaa &c could be cited as Akaa and analysed (from the Latin pov) as consisting of the stem Aka- and the 1st decl. ending -a; thus, Akaa, Akaae (first I thought of Akae, but that might be a bit opaque). In Hyvinkää, the final -ää, again, results from vowel harmony (/y/ being a front vowel); so, if the Latin word is built on the Finnish model, as it probably should, we'd have Hyvinkaa, Hyvinkaae (i.e. /hyvinka+a, hyvinka+ae/). Personally, I might want to build the Latin word, in this case, on the Swedish name Hyvinge and say Hyvinga, Hyvingae. I admit this looks all rather artificial and far-fetched. On the other hand, I'm not happy with lemmata too deviant from the original. BTW, now that I see Hanko, -inis and Närpes, -itis, I'm afraid they may look a bit perverse, after all. Though they're perfect from the pov of Latin morphophonology, they look funny in the same way as constructing, in English, the plural bine for bow on the model of cow, kine; or saying applew as the past form of apply on the model of fly, flew, etc. (No pun intended :-) For Närpes, -etis I'd definitely prefer Närpes, Närpesii; and Hanko, -onis looks better, despite its linguistic nonchalance. --Neander 00:57, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

As usual these days I'm just passing through. The original finnish declension chart was written in the days before we started regularly citing sources, so it looks like we just made it up. But in fact, the original version came from Tuomo Pekkanen's Kalevala Latina. In the introduction he lays out the system he used to decline proper nouns, and seems to imply that this system is in widespread use among Finnish Latinists. It looks like I'll have to give you guys the full quote, when I can find a moment (I;m desperately trying to get ready for the Conventiculum Latinum Lexintoniense.) --Iustinus 00:31, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

How come, I've never seen Kalevala Latina (shame on me!), but I have full respect to the senior colleague, whose expertness exceeds mine in many ways. Maybe it's time to go back to square one? --Neander 01:14, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

There is one short paragraph on Latin declension in Pekkanen's preface.

Ea nomina, quae verti non possunt, Latine declinavi: Ahto, -onis, Kullervo, -onis, Sariola, -ae, Hiisi, -sis, Väinämöinen, -möinis, Lemminkäinen, -käinis, Ilmarinen, -rinis, etc. ut apud nostrates assolet

. That's all. In the Kalevala text itself, however, I noted two things; namely 1) that he did not consistently stick to the rules laid out here (e.g. Lempo, Lempis rather than Lemponis 2)concerning ä as a stem vowel: he simply changed the relevant ä to a in the ending (see Disputatio Usoris:Harrissimo. --Iovis Fulmen 19:06, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Given Pekkanen's model, Kaskinen (in the table Harrissimo refers to above) would be Kaskinen, Kaskininis (cf. Ilmarinen, -inis). --Neander 19:27, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I hope not! But he writes Väinämöinis and Ilmarinis, not Ilmarininis (cf. unguen, unguinis and similar words).--Iovis Fulmen 19:31, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC) P.S. I take it it would sound better to Finnish ears to change the table so that names ending in -inen get -inis as their genitives?

You're right, Jupiterin salama! I'm abashed at having committed an elementary kind of cognitive error. The Pekkanen-right form would be, of course, Kaskinen, Kaskinis. Terveisin --Neander 02:12, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I made the same mistake when I came up with unguen as an example because this is how it's not done.--Iovis Fulmen 06:38, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Not just Finnish names

Re Neander's comment: "The problem with Hanko, -onis is that the -ōnis suffix presupposes a long final (Hankō)."—Now that's a really interesting point because it opens up a can of worms in other languages. All the vowels in Hawai‘i, the Hawaiian name for the famous island & archipelago, are short, but Traupman ignores that phonology so he can convert the name to Havaiī and put it in the second declension (as a nominative plural). On that basis, elsewhere in Polynesia, Manihiki becomes Manihikī, -ōrum and Viti becomes Vitī, -ōrum. The larger principle appears to be that Latinization can ignore indigenous length when it needs to. IacobusAmor 23:25, 24 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

OK, draft numero trois has just been made, reinstating -onis and adding Neander's second suggestions. Number four will probably be out if kalevala has anything new. --Harrissimo 13:47, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Gun

This seems like an odd question, but is there a Latin word for 'gun'? --Secundus Zephyrus 14:49, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Vocabularium meum dicit "sclopetum". --Partonopier 15:04, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Sine dubio est "sclopetum".--Ioscius ^(disp) 15:16, 22 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Et vide wikt:sclopetum! --Alex1011 12:19, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Declinatio nominum Graecorum

Consentio de suggestione tua paginae meae de nominibus Graecis movendae ad locum publicum. Quomodo id perficiemus? --Fabullus 10:18, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Fortasse in Vicilibri? Vel simpliciter sub Grammaticae categoria paginam nomine "Declinatio nominum Graecorum" faciamus. --Alex1011 11:12, 23 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Etiam, fortasse sit contribuenda cum Translitteratio Linguae Graecae.--Ioscius ^(disp) 11:53, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have this article in the article namespace. And it can be merged later. Btw, I wonder that it seems no other Wikipedia has such articles about the Greek language ... though, the Germans have de:Deutsche Deklination. --Rolandus 22:21, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Magnas vobis gratias ago ob suggestiones vestras. Pagina tamen mea non est de nominibus Graecis per se, Rolande, sed de nominibus Graecis in linguam Latinam transferendis. Quamobrem magis mihi videtur tractandam ut instrumentum quam ut lemma vicipaedianum ipso iure. Quid cernetis? Interea recensere eam pergam in loco ubi nunc sita est. Ceterum libenter accipiam et hic emendationes et additamenta aliorum vicipaedianorum. Facite ut valeatis.--Fabullus 08:29, 6 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Oval Office

What would the latin translation of "oval" office be? Oval is listed in the dictionary is listed as coming from the neo-latin "ovalis." Therfore, should it be "officina ovalis" or "sedes officinae ovalis" or something else?Andy85719 06:43, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

The OLMD says ovatus and that always uses classical sources, I think. So maybe officina ovata (or vice-versa). But several places on the internet also say ovalis. --Harrissimo 13:37, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha ha! Ovata also means rejoiced. Seems appropriate after Bill Clinton.Andy85719 22:52, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. Chemical nomenclature

I noticed that the chemical elements pages were lacking consistancy and decided to make a standard table. However, I soon realized that I couldn't figure out the right translations for several things. What would electronegativity translate to? Or even point of vaporization?

Here are some terms that need to be translated before I can complete the table. I hope some know the proper translation.

Heat of vaporization
Crystal structure (There is already some else's translation on the some pages but I am not sure about it.) Oxidation State
Ionization Energies
Group, block, and period. (Some already have these named but they don't seem right. I know glaeba is used to mean a clump of earth but I am not clear about it meaning a group. I am also not sure of the direct translation periodus clearly fits the definition of period.)
Electron configuraion
Covalent radius
Magnetic Ordering
Mohs, Vickers, and Brinell hardness

There might be more. Hmm? Glaeba? Also, someone's translation of melting point as punctum liquofactu is making me wonder. Why is this person using the ablative here while using the genitive in punctum fervoris? New fangled terminology is proving very difficult. While early terms are in Latin, later terms originated in German or English and therefore are not complying easily. Puto dum scribo.Andy85719 22:43, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

• Electron Configuration = configuratio electronis

I have no idea what any of the other stuff is (even in English) sorry, --Harrissimo 22:55, 25 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Magnetic Ordering could be translated as "Collocatio Magneticum," and since afaik Mohs Vickers and Brinell are all names, the last one could be "Duramen Mohs/Vickers/Brinell." I think the answer for the rest would be to determine the origins of each of the English terms, and then just work out latin forms from there. And "Electron Configuration" should be "Configuratio Electronum" not "Configuratio Electronis."

Well, it should end in -a whatever it is. All these nouns you have are feminine. And instead of collocatio, why not ordinatio? (electronicA, chemicA, magneticA)--Ioscius ^(disp) 03:49, 18 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Termini religiosi aliarum linguarum

Scribens sum aliquod pro pagina Mystica et nescio, quomodo termini religiosi convertendi sunt. Id est: sanscritice Brahman, Atman; graece exstasis; hebraice Kabbala, Sephirot et alii. Quid putatis, melior sit nomines aliena uti? Aut scitis vocabularium terminorum eius modi? --Partonopier 11:07, 26 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Estne hæc Wikipædia LATINA ???

Ignoscite, sodales, sed cujusnam linguæ est hæc Wikipædia? In Catalonicá Viquipèdia disputationes fiunt Catalonicé, in Vasconicá Wikipedia Vasconicé, in esperanticá Vikipedio esperanticé, ... Curnam inferorum in hác tantum Wikipædiá nomine tenus LATINÁ praecipuæ disputationes fiunt ANGLICÉ ???!!! Quæso deleantur ab hac Wikipædiá Latiná omnia quæ non sint scripta linguá nostrá. Gratias vobis ago in antecessús.

Ut diximus, et confiteor ad me taedendum, haec est encyclopaedia Latina. Si, ope linguarum aliarum, possimus optimam encyclopaediam Latinam creare, quidni? Tuine re vera nocemus, barbarice disputantes? Opportet, si id fieri potest, credo, adolescere. --Ioscius ^(disp) 15:50, 26 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Oportet etiam discere Latiné. Ceterum, equidem jam diu adolevi.

Sine dubio Vicipaedia linguae latinae est. Sed Catalones linguam Catalanam quam linguam maternam habent ut disputent, Vascones linguam vasconam. Et puto linguam esperanticam facilius esse quam Latinam etiam si nemo eam quam linguam maternam habet. --Partonopier 16:47, 26 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Profecto, "si ope linguarum aliarum possimus optimam encyclopædiam Latinam creare", equidem faverem inceptui. Quo tamen modo possunt "optimam encyclopædiam Latinam creare" ei qui Latiné parum sciunt? Ego sæpius conatus sum hanc Latinam encyclopædiam multimodis augere sed postea veniunt quidam ignorantes, qui ne intelligibili quidem —nedum boná— possunt scribere Latinitate, et quæ addidi "corrigunt" (nempe in pejus) vel delent omnino. Tales ignorantes hujus "Latinæ" (nomine tenus) encyclopædiæ potiti sunt. Tantum cum veri eruditi quique linguam Latinam bene calleant hanc Wikipædiam moderabuntur poterimus habere "optimam encyclopædiam Latinam". Tales eruditos invenietis sine difficultate in Grege Latiné Loquentium. Ceterum, hocc obliviscimini: non omnes boni Latinistæ sciunt Anglicé; ergo si Anglicé disputatis, multos bonos Latinistas qui possent multa conferre ut "optimam encyclopædiam Latinam" crearemus male arcetis. Immo, hoc vobis dico: bene scio —quia mihi nonnulli hoc dixerunt— abundantiam linguæ Anglicæ in hac "Latiná" encyclopædiá esse causam quominus multi optimi Latinistæ non participent. Secunda causa est quod si quid quis bonus Latinista híc scribit, quilibet linguæ Latinæ ignorantes jus se arrogant Latinitatis in pejus mutandæ.

Sed fortasse tales "ignorantes" linguae Latinae experti aliarum disciplinarum sunt. Puto Vicipaediam plus indigere peritis variarum scientiarum quam hominibus summi ingenii in lingua Latina, nonne? Etiam Latinitas excellentissima sine argumentum non facit paginam. --Partonopier 11:27, 27 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Notandum est multi editores Wikipediae Anglicae pessime linguam Anglicam scribere; nihilominus contributa eorum interdum utillima sunt. In Wikipedia Anglica habes expertos rerum, expertos linguae, expertos paginas pulchras componere; cur non hic? Vicipaedia est opus collaborativum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:58, 27 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Rectissimé ambo dicitis. Ego non nego nobis opus esse omnium scientiarum peritis, potius doleo quod propter colloquia in linguá multis optimis Latinistis ignotá difficilior est eis accessus ad has disputationes, ideoque abeunt; doleo etiam quod minus linguæ Latinæ peritos pessimas leges orthographicas eruditioribus imponere conentur Latinitatemque peritiorum continenter "emendent", quæ et alia causa est ut tales linguæ Latinæ peritiores identidem frustrati proposita sua collaborandi tandem deponere cupiant.

Certe, etiam recte dicis. Sed rursus mali Latinistae, qui fortasse experti aliarum scientiarum sunt, deterrentur et cooperatione perhibentur. Consentio usore Andrew Dalby quod melius sit in pagina disputationis indulgere. Et quaestio emendationum dubiarum non solum in Vicipaedia latina est sed generaliter in principio 'wiki'. Id solus solvi potest labore administratorum. --Partonopier 15:28, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Consentio et ego, eá de causá magni momenti est ut administratores sint boni, neque arbitrario more se gerant, sed optimis fundamentis philologicis (vide infra, necnon híc, sed præsertim híc: Auxilium pro editione (latine)). Avitus 09:30, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Salve, hoc puncto ignote! Aliquot dies afui. Heri vidi hunc sermonem, quem credo etiam ad me attinere.

In Catalonicá Viquipèdia disputationes fiunt Catalonicé, in Vasconicá Wikipedia Vasconicé, in esperanticá Vikipedio esperanticé, ...

Doleo, quod a collatione tam falsa proficisceris. Qui Vicipaediam Catalonicam aut Vasconicam contribuunt plerumque sermone patrio maternave lingua utuntur. Qui Esperanticam, lingua nempe aliis faciliore (ut volunt) utuntur; si Anglice inter se disputarent, suis propositis contradicerent. Nemo autem Latinam linguam a pueritia didicit. Vicipaedia nostra potius feliciusque cum Anglosaxonica, Arpitanica quin et Lojbana comparetur. Ecce tibi: barbarice inter se loquuntur et illi.

Elegi quas linguas primum venerunt in mentem. Ceterum, etiam si nos scribimus Anglicé nostris propositis contradicimus, primum quia hóc modo videtur Latiné loqui esse rem tam abstrusam atque Lojbanicé loqui, secundum quia hóc modo fovemus ut qui Latiné nondum bene sciunt multas paginas audeant scribere quæ numerum quidem paginarum augent, sed non efficiunt encyclopædiam Latinam seriam.

Inter Vicipaedianos profecto multi sunt qui linguam Latinam parum calleant, attamen verissimi amatores dilectoresque linguae nostrae sunt suamque operam sedulo et abstinenter navant, ut Vicipaedia Latina inter alias Vicipaedias quam maxime floreat. Equidem etiam hos amatores "ignorantes" magni facio in hoc mundo, qui non nauci habet linguam Latinam. Pars horum quos dixi amatorum aliquot menses tantum linguam Latinam gustaverunt. Cottidie magis magisque discunt.

Fortasse recté dicis, sed adde quod tales qui Latinam linguam calleant parum non tantum inter Wikipædianos numerantur, sed etiam facti sunt magistratús et aliis imperant quo modo scribatur Latiné, et hoc fit etsi perspicué dicitur in paginá petitionis: Magistratus ... Latinitatem optimam habeant.

Ego sæpius conatus sum hanc Latinam encyclopædiam multimodis augere sed postea veniunt quidam ignorantes, qui ne intelligibili quidem nedum boná possunt scribere Latinitate, et quæ addidi "corrigunt" (nempe in pejus) vel delent omnino. Tales ignorantes hujus "Latinæ" (nomine tenus) encyclopædiæ potiti sunt.

Nemo Vicipaediae Latinae potitus est! Nihil obstat, quominus homines optimum Latinitatis gradum consecuti inceptui Vicipaediano intersint. Accessus omnibus liber est (et esto). Si vero ea, quibus Vicipaediam augere conatus es, ab aliis deformata aut prorsus deleta sunt, hoc magnopere doleo praesertim cum optimo genere Latinitatis excellere videris. Si quis perperam quae addidisti habuit, suadeo, ut rationem repetas. Si de principiis scribendi edendique agitur, dubium non est, quin colloquium benignum auxilio sit.

Rem acu tetigisti, nam de legibus quibusdam orthographicis pessimis disputatio est, quam utrum benigné habuerim nescio, rationabiliter quidem et verís argumentis philologicis certo scio. Quam vide híc et præsertim híc: Auxilium pro editione (latine).

Ceterum, hocc obliviscimini: non omnes boni Latinistæ sciunt Anglicé; ergo si Anglicé disputatis, multos bonos Latinistas qui possent multa conferre ut "optimam encyclopædiam Latinam" crearemus male arcetis. Immo, hoc vobis dico: bene scio quia mihi nonnulli hoc dixerunt abundantiam linguæ Anglicæ in hac "Latiná" encyclopædiá esse causam quominus multi optimi Latinistæ non participent.

Num vera causa est ista ignoratio linguae Anglicae?

Profecto non sola, sed partim est, certo scio.

Me quoque piget imperii linguae Anglicae et pudet Anglice scribendo hoc imperium mea parte augere et hoc modo efficere, ut varietas linguarum mundi deminuat. Dum vivimus, cum paradoxis vivimus. Interdum tamen aptius esse puto lingua Anglica vel alia quadam lingua intelligibili uti "metalingua", cum opus est de principiis normisque inter convenas disceptare – et ita, ut quam plurimi minima titubatione intelligendi interesse possint.

Ut jam dixi, hóc modo invitantur ad disputationem ei qui, cum parum sciant Latiné, parum possunt quid sit bona rectaque Latinitas decernere.

Sin autem usu linguae Anglicae abstinendo re vera fieri potest, ut callidissimae Latinitatis auctores, ubicumque gentium sint, catervatim ad Vicipaediam Latinam contribuendam conveniant, rem opinor expeditu esse facilem. At timeo, ut hac ratione hoc pollicitum assequatur.

Profecto difficile erit ut "catervatim" veniant, sed equidem non paucis persuadere possim. Non tamen id possum toto corde facere donec huic encyclopædiæ ne ipse quidem fidam.

Utinam omnes Latinistae in claustris electronicis inter se garrientes gregatim adveniant peritiam suam Vicipaediae augendae impertituri! Opus aere perennius faciant. Neander 15:08, 29 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Recté dicis, utinam! Sed dum híc imperent ignorantes qui et libertatem et Latinitatem aliorum se conculcare posse putent (et faciant), nemo Latinitatis peritus hanc rem respiciet. Avitus 09:25, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Quæ est communitas Wikipædiæ Latinæ?

1. In Wikipedia Anglicá invenio paginam ubi recensentur omnes usores:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians

Ubi possumus consulere qui sint usores nostræ Wikipædiæ Latinæ?

Ah! Tandem invéni responsum híc. Gratias mihi ago. ;-)

a) Page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedians has an interwiki link to Vicipaedia:Usores b) Categoria:Linguae usorum might be helpful as well c) Vicipaedia:Index has the entry "Usor" --Rolandus 13:48, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

2. Sunt etiam in Wikipedia Anglicá paginæ ubi certiores fimus de systemate administrativo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_adminship

Híc tamen, ego jam sæpius rogavi qui sint magistratús, quot, quomodo electi, et cetera. Quæso aliquis respondeat. Gratias vobis ago in antecessús.

Etiam secundo ipse invéni responsum rogato: http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicipaedia:Magistratus

Page Vicipaedia:Index has the entry "administrator". --Rolandus 13:48, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Ubi legitur: Magistratus usores certissimi, humanissimi, patientissimi sint. Latinitatem optimam habeant, etiam Vicipaediae Latinae experti sint.

Magistratus profecto ego creari non possum. ;-)

Quippe ut videtur.--Ioscius ^(disp) 14:16, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Avitus 08:55, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Alii termini technici

Recens latinitas 'dolium sine fundum' est... Estne aliquem, qui me adiuvare potest interpretatione horum verborum: Moderne, Postmoderne, (aut anglice postmodernism etc.), Essay? --Partonopier 15:08, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm . . . modernus, a, um est adiectivus Latinus, tamen tibi dabo, modernum ipsud (hahahaha, get it? modernus is a modern word, hahaha). Postmodernus, autem, non mi placet. Essay sit commentatio, commentarium, vel similis.--Ioscius ^(disp) 15:29, 28 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

De modern inspicias Usor:Iustinus/Translator's Guide#Words for "Modern". Et recte, essay est "commentatio" vel aliis contextibus "opus scholasticum." --Iustinus 19:59, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot about this discussion. Thanks for your replies! I have also seen the entry in the translator's guide. However, this is not exactly what I meant. German 'Moderne' is a fixed expression for arts and litterature around 1900 (Kafka etc.). In English this would probably be 'modernism', if a word like this exists at all. So would it be sth. like 'modernismus' resp. 'postmodernismus' in Latin? (By the way, do you have 'postmodernism' or sth. comparable in English? In German this is used for the philosophy of Derrida, Deleuze, Umberto Eco etc.) --Partonopier 18:22, 9 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

See en:modernism and en:postmodernism. A quick answer would be Latin modernismus and postmodernismus. --Alex1011 19:33, 9 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Urbes Graeciae

Feci novam formulam {{Urbs Graeciae}}; mappam producit. Spero usum facilem esse. Si alii volunt addere eam formulam in paginis urbium Graecarum, valde bene! Longitudinem, latitudinem, nomina peripheriae et nomi, invenimus in Vicipaedia Anglica; haec nomina Latine habes hic: Index nomorum Graeciae. Etiam vide, exempli gratia, paginam Patrae.

I've made a new template for towns and cities in Greece; it adds a map. I hope it's easy to use. If others want to try it out on some Greek city pages, please do! We can usually get the latitude, longitude, name of region and prefecture, from the English Wikipedia page; a Latin form of these last two names can be found at Index nomorum Graeciae. For an example of the template in use, see Patrae. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:40, 29 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks, Andrew. (although I'm pretty sure mappa means "napkin", not map... Although, if you could write a template that produced a napkin, I'd certainly be impressed ;]) --Ioscius ^(disp) 17:56, 29 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I meant to check that ... :[ Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:47, 29 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

No problem =] I was serious, though, I'd like to see the template which produces a napkin. Mirabile sit visu!!--Ioscius ^(disp) 18:11, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Translatio lemmatis

Please see Disputatio Vicipaediae:Translatio lemmatis. --Rolandus 07:56, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

pagina mensis - physica electromagnetica

I'm about to make an executive decision, unless someone makes a clamor:

Our author of Nix, which was slated to be pagina mensis starting in a few hours, has left the building, and left the article in a state that is not exactly mensis worthy. Needless to say, no one else has improved it, either. Therefore, I'm planning on putting it back int eh proposed pages, and bumping Rafael and Xaverius' pages up a month. Physica electromagnetica will be for August, Hispania Visigothica for September.

Problems? --Ioscius ^(disp) 18:10, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Come September I will be able to devote time to improve Nix, but right now I'm swamped..I only have time for minor edits.--Rafaelgarcia 22:25, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

No biggie, I've meant to work on it, too.--Ioscius ^(disp) 22:38, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Southeastern

Does anyone know how to say Southeast and Southeastern in latin? --Harrissimo 11:10, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

I suggest: quod ad orientalem et meridionalem partem spectat. Or: Euro subpositum, Volturno subpositum, sub Euro, sub Volturno. Vide etiam ventus et index geographicus. --Alex1011 11:30, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

So what would be your recommendation for 'South Eastern Satakunta?' (Satakunta = Satagundia) --Harrissimo 16:13, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

The adjective eurous (southeasterly) is attested in Vergil, so Satakunta euroa. --Iovis Fulmen 19:17, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Harrissimo 19:22, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)

ordinal numbers and years!

I see that our German friends always write ordinals numbers or years with a point, e.g 1861. (cfr. Theodorus Mommsen before my correction) . I believe that the point is used in German but not in Latin, is it right or wrong? Thank you?--Massimo Macconi 08:22, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the point signifies ordinal numbers in German, but with years we actually don't use it. That must have been a mistake. As far as I know, the Germans are the only ones who have that habit with the point, which means in Latin you probably don't use it, do you? When using ordinal numbers I usually try to write the name in letters, e.g. "decimus". But is there a latin sign for ordinal numbers, like the German point or the Spanish small "o" or "a"? --Partonopier 09:27, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Aye, we have such a thing: we usually just superscript the inflection. E.g. Hodie est 1^us dies mensis Augusti. Loquar cum 1^o homine quem video, etc . . . --Ioscius ^(disp) 13:19, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

That's cumbersome, and most of our articles compress dates into their most efficient form; e.g., 1 Augusti 2007. For nondates, I, like Partenopier, prefer to see numbers written out. IacobusAmor 13:35, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, Iacobe, when I said we, I meant modern Latinists in general, not necessarily Vicipaediani. Part of my answer also stems for, despite my ability to learn languages, and despite the fact that I know how to converse in several, I almost never learn the number systems . . . With Russian it is the worst, I don't even make an attempt: "я родилься v nineteen eighty three". --Ioscius ^(disp) 13:51, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Frugi

There were some famous men during the Republic named Frugi. Is this name the indeclinable adjective frugi (formally the dative of frux but used as an indeclinable adjective), or is it a declinable 2nd declension plural noun? I've never heard of a Latin personal name having plural morphology before (even Caligula's nickname got singularized), but there's a first time for everything. —Angr 15:03, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well, no one could answer my question, so I bought a copy of the Oxford Latin Dictionary and looked it up there. The answer is yes, the name Frugi is the indeclinable adjective and is thus also indeclinable. —Angr 20:25, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, Angr, for missing your question. Well, the OLD is a good thing to have on your shelves (if the shelves are strong enough) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:04, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I think my bookshelves can take it. They're already carrying Liddell & Scott (which is bigger) and all four volumes of the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru, each of which is bigger than the OLD. (Although the OLD hasn't actually been on my bookshelf yet, it's still lying on a chair next to my desk where I can admire it.) —Angr 10:55, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Confused by Cities/Stupefacior urbibus

The CFA page is extremely confusing, as it uses two formats for naming cities. Use the gen. after the comma? In parentheses? Nominative after the comma? This issue with listing U.S. cities and then states needs to be clearly figured out. When dealing with small cities I don't know what to do. I'm not going to make any links to city pages until this has been figured out conclusively. I know there has been some talk that it is standard to use the parentheses but I just need to confirm this as so. No one wants links to no-where or rides on the redirect highway. My state representative pages have places like Snowflake and Claypool, Arizona so I can't just use the name. Lacuna Luti. CAC!! (cachinno) Andy85719 03:24, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I agree it'll be good to have this clear. I always work to the standard you describe (adding, when necessary, name of country/state/region in the nominative, in parentheses) and I think some others do too, but let's make sure. And then, yes, by all means, let's try to correct some of the redlinks before they turn blue.

I 'like Lacuna Luti!

To comment on the choices available:

1. I think a comma followed by the country/state/region name in the genitive is bad punctuation: you don't separate a possessive from its possessed by a comma.
2. The normal Roman method was to do the above, but without the comma: thus Divona Cadurcorum and -- an example familiar to many who know the New Testament story -- Bethlehem Iudaeae ("Bethlehem of Judaea"). When I first arrived here a year ago I argued for this to be our standard, but I was persuaded, and I do believe now, that the next choice is clearer and better.
3. I think the form where the country/state/region name appears in parentheses in the nominative is a fairly neutral method, that looks OK, and that is easy for anyone to apply (you don't even have to know what the genitive is!); and it has the great advantage to a Wikipedia editor that you can save yourself time, when making redirects, by using the Wikipedia:Pipe trick (or now: Vicipaedia:Pipe trick --Rolandus).
4. I think a comma followed by the country/state/region name in the nominative is OK, but it lacks the ability to use the pipe trick; and it is strongly reminiscent of American English, so maybe it doesn't feel quite so neutral.

That's enough from me! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:16, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

A little known fact: it tunrs out that you can use the "pipe trick" with commas too. See the linked page. --Iustinus 03:04, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Andrew's #2 is the method that a cursory examination of sample pages suggests is the current Vicipaedia standard. It's not, however, the one that Andy is using for U.S. Congressional representatives: he's using #3. IacobusAmor 19:43, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

But actually we have discussed this before, more than once, and #3 [ ... (nominative)] is the current Vicipaedia standard on real pages. So if this is what Andy has been doing, I think Andy's right and he should go ahead! Both Rolandus and I (maybe others too) have spent some time, over the last few months, changing the headings on real pages so that they match this standard, and I have written a lot of new place-name pages (like, hundreds) that match it too. It's a free world, but I would be a bit regretful if we now decide to change again.

I think Andy has been confused by the fact that there are many redirects, and many redlinks, that correspond to a different standard (usually #1 or #4). That's true; they were set up years ago. We just have to gradually change them -- and the sooner the better.

I haven't had the same experience as you, Iacobe: I have seen very few pages headed like #2 [... genitive]. Any I do see, I change, unless the form is actually the original full Roman name (as is Divona Cadurcorum). There aren't many of those. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:01, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Andrew has cleaned up page Vicipaedia:Pipe trick and I have added a link to Disputatio:Liuvigildus (rex Visigothorum). — The idea was that the context should be in brackets and that the context is that what you normally do not mention when you are talking about something. I think you'd say "Liuvigildus" when you mean Liuvigildus. The brackets also have the advantage that they make a context different from an enumeration like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (see http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicipaedia:Dump/latest#Title_with_comma_.2816.29 for pages with a comma in the title). Then, if we had titles where commas indicate the context and titles where brackets do this, the sorting will not be by context, but first by style and then by alphabet, I fear. And then, I personally think that "Santa Barbara (California), which ..." looks clearer than "Santa Barbara, California, which ..." where the comma after "California" has a different function than indicating the context. --Rolandus 12:51, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Then I stand corrected—but putting curved parentheses within curved parentheses remains questionable: in prose of the sort that I edit, internal parentheses typically go inside square brackets, not curved ones. ¶ Yes, "Santa Barbara, California" doesn't seem right at all. Do we have attestations of how Classical writers handled such cases? Would they have said Santa Barbara Californiae or Santa Barbara in California or Santa Barbara Californiensium or what? IacobusAmor 13:02, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

For example,

Ioannes Salazar (natus Alamosa (Coloratum) die 21 Iulii 1953) est. . . .

is wrong, and

Ioannes Salazar (natus Alamosae [Coloratum] die 21 Iulii 1953) est. . . .

would be right. (Note too that Alamosa is not in the locative, but it should be.) IacobusAmor 13:07, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Hm ... I understand what you mean. Yes, square brackets are even better for indicating a context and I would use them like you, if square brackets did not have this special meaning here. I cannot argue against that, just two things:

• In a wiki it would not be necessary to write "natus Alamosa (Coloratum)", because it would be "natus [[Alamosa (Coloratum)|]]" which shows up as "natus Alamosa", which looks nice. The question remains, what generally should happen to links, when the data shall be printed. ;-)
• I realize, that I make a difference between inline text and titles. This might not be correct, but I like titles as simple as possible. They are a technical thing for me. They represent the record. So they need to be just "good enough". Of course the first line in the page should use the correct title with all special characters. So I once proposed to write Christophorus Schoenborn (in the title) instead of Christophorus Schönborn. (See some snippets on page Usor:Rolandus#Special_characters.) This might be unaccaptable for others but it is the way names were written here when computers were limited to ASCII. ASCII = American Standard Code for Information Interchange. Knowing my background, you might understand my favour for this standardized form with brackets. Supposed, you are looking for "Batavia" in Bavaria: It might be simply Batavia, but there is a good chance that this is the page for the old name of the Netherlands. Then you have several options: Batavia (Bavaria) or Batavia, Bavaria (if it is an American city) or Batavia Bavariae or Batavia in Bavaria (depending on whether "Bavaira" is large or small and island or not, as I understand). Batavia (Bavaria) is the form which could be used in any case.

--Rolandus 14:12, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all is possible. The parentheses may be in the heading, but we can choose whether to incorporate them and their contents in the text. If it would nest in another pair of parentheses, then better not, I agree. To take Rolandus's example, you would hardly need the (Coloratum) in your text, because if anyone wants to know where this place is, they can click on the link and find out. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:28, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

OK, good: we're all in agreement. Andy should remember the locative though: in that context, it should be, not Alamosa, but Alamosae. IacobusAmor 14:36, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

And using the pipe trick, it works fine if you write [[Alamosa (Coloratum)|]]e. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:23, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Conventiculum

Conventiculum Latinum Lexintoniense anni 2007 nunc est peractum. Paulo prius oratiunculam participibus dedi de re nostra, et computatro ad proiectorium ligato exiguas mutationes simul fecimus in pagina de conventiculo ipso. Sed doleo me nimium temporis consumere nolentem de nihil locutum esse praeter paginis ipsis. Conventiculares ergo nesciunt de disputatione, necnon de communitate nostra. Proh dolor, sed fortasse nunc anno proximo melius quid dicendum sit scivero. Sane haec omnia disci possunt post adventum ad vicipaediam, sed vereor ne, e.g. se posse de rebus nobiscum conferre nescii (et quidem angice!) nimis difficile videatur. Peius est de communitate nescire, quoniam est res summi momenti inter nos! --Iustinus 20:56, 2 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

New XML-dump

We have a new XML-dump, see Vicipaedia:Dump/latest. --Rolandus 19:21, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

"Vir civilis," "legatus," etc.

Andy85719, as I pointed out some hours ago, you continue to generate page after page of congressional biographies without having sought consensus on the basic terminology. If any of these terms is inadequate, a lot of cleanup will have to be done. By vir civilis do you really mean an 'affable man'? or what? By legatus, do you really mean 'ambassador'? For 'representative in Congress', the best current term could merely be repraesentans, as we see in this sentence from Ephemeris: "Et repraesentantibus et Senatoribus militum reditus in annum 2008 per leges decernendus videtur" (http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/nuntius.php?id=318). Ainsworth's says a 'politician' is a politicae scientiae peritus. Etc. IacobusAmor 02:32, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, politicae scientiae peritus. sounds more like the translation for "political scientitist" not for "politician". --Rafaelgarcia 03:43, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

But that's approximately what a politician is! According to the OED, the earliest surviving current definition of politician is "One versed in the theory or science of government and the art of governing." The problem here is that academicians have made political science a topic of academic study: "a social science concerned chiefly with the description and analysis of political and esp. governmental institutions and processes" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). IacobusAmor 12:55, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

At one point Andrew translated politician as "vir publicus"--Rafaelgarcia 03:47, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I simply adopted that form (if you mean me, Rafael!) from a categoria established before my time: Categoria:Viri publici. We had a problem with it, in fact, because we wanted to categorize Segolena Royal, and she could not be called either a vir publicus or a mulier publica (!). That was when someone suggested Categoria:Politicorum periti, and we used it. It has only two inhabitants, though, so it would be easy to change if a better term is agreed on. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:01, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

In Classical times, here's what legati were: "Legati may be divided into three classes: 1. Legati or ambassadors sent to Rome by foreign nations; 2. Legati or ambassadors sent from Rome to foreign nations and into the provinces; 3. Legati who accompanied the Roman generals into the field, or the proconsuls and praetors into the provinces" (from William Smith's A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities). More information is available at http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Legatus.html). IacobusAmor 02:49, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry for this mistake, but I was merely going with the terminology perceived as correct on the CFA page. If you read the section you will see it use legatis publicus in the sentence "Rama legifera constat in duabus curiis, quae sunt Comitia a 435 legatis populi constituta et Senatus." I too thought repraesentans sounded better as I also think that Comitia may not be the right word. That is why I think people should be more cautious about declaring a pages Latin as checked when their are errors of this magnitude. I shall take it upon myself to move the people to Repraesentantes. As I am sure you all know, and I have figured out, crummy online latin dictionaries are dangerous as I found out with vir civilis after I looked at my Oxford Latin dictionary and found politician listed as: vir rerum publicarum peritus. This listing seems way too long and requires the invention of a mulier version. Eheu!!! By the way, legati does make sense in this case somewhat. The states are considered independent bodies within the U.S. Therefore, you could argue that they are ambassadors for the different regions within the states. The representatives are sent to Washington D.C. the capital, as legati were sent to Rome. Haa. Politicians as scientists. That's funny. Our politicians are known for being the least scientific people around. They don't know how to count and balance a budget, they are caught with prostitutes, molesting children, stealing money, lying, fighting, etc. Heck, the representative from Louisiana was found with $50,000

—$90,000, IIRC. IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)—

stuffed in his freezer. Maybe he wanted some cold cash. Therefore, I think defining politicians as political scientists is a mistake. There are already political scientists and they usually can be found in Universities or large think tanks. I will refrain from making anymore pages until this is all sorted out. Once it is I will move the pages to the desired location. Before we go further, political terms need to be defined (Beside them I have put suggestions):

Representative (Repraesentans)
Congress (Congressus)
Parliament (legumlatorum, legatorum)

Senatus, says Ainsworth. IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Speaker of the House (Orator Camerae)

Rogator, says Ainsworth. IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Whip (amicitia, real meaning) (flagellum, calque)
Majority Leader (Ductor/Dux Maioris Partis)

'Party' usually factio? IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Minority Leader (Ductor/Dux Minoris Partis)
House of Representatives (Camera Repraesentatum)
House of Commons (Camera Communis), (Camera Plebeia), (Comitia)

Senatus inferior & plebis conventus, says Ainsworth. + Don't leave out the House of Lords. IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Assembly or National Assembly
Chamber of Deputies
Bill (lex)

'To bring in a bill to the house' = Ad senatum referre legem rogare (Ainsworth). 'The bill was thrown out'= Senatus legem propositam rejecit (Ainsworth). 'The bill is passed' = Lex a senatu admissa est ~ comprobata est (Ainsworth). IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Supreme Court
Prime Minister

Primus minister. IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Premier
Sultan
politician (male and female)

Politicus according to recent Ephemeris article.

House of Lords (Camera Domini)
House of the Senate (Curia), (Camera Senatus)
Members of Parliament
Committee
Cabinet (summum principis consilium), (ministrorum consilium)
Delegate and Delegation
Caucus
Political Party (Factio)
Filibuster
Act of Congress (Decretum Congressus)
Act of Parliament (Decretum Legumlatori)

'An act or deed of the commons' = Plebis-scitum (Ainsworth). IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Page (puer, puella)
Commander-in-Chief (ductor/dux exercitus)
Sergent at Arms
Member of Parliament
Member of the House of Representatives
Congressperson
constituency
Liberal (liberalis)
Conservative (conservativus)
Moderate (mediocris)
Impeach (accuso)
Electoral College
Secretary (i.e Secretary of State)
Department
Minister (i.e. Minister of Defense)

Minister! IacobusAmor 21:37, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Ministry
Administration (i.e. Kennedy Administration)
Veto (intercessio n., veto)
Slurge
Pardon (ignosco, venia)
Reprieve
Legislate v. (legem fero)
Legislation (legem datio)
Legislator (legem lator)

Rambling again. Anyway, now that we have a consensus on the titling of U.S. city names, I shall work on them and try to update the infobox to provide the option of adding more data. Salve. Andy85719 18:46, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Andy, your politicians sound very much like other politicians. :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:05, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Wow, looks like the start of a glossarium. ;-) We already have some: Categoria:Glossaria. --Rolandus 19:06, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Dux Maioris

Oh. Dux Maioris Partis was supposed to stand for the Majority leader in the House of Representatives or Senate in the U.S., not a party, which scilicet is factio. The majority leaders are elected by their peers and help get people into cushy committee positions. The Rogator Camerae is usually the Dux maioris partis factionis suae. The minority leaders are also elected by their peers and fill the same role except it has the additional perk of rallying the opposition, sort of the U.S. version of an opposition leader. I still don't know what the Whip should be called. This person usually acts as the arm of the majority or minority to rally support, or ut in forma eos flagellet. Amicitia sounds nicer because they really are liaisons but the calque flagellum makes sense because it is what the name is meant to imply.

Aut Parliamentum aut Congressus

I think that Ainsworth might be a little wrong.

—In what respect? It's a British dictionary from the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, and surely when it referred to Parliament as the senatus, it had good grounds for doing so. At that time, Parliament kept a summary of its proceedings in Latin, so (buried in libraries somewhere) there must be ample evidence for Latin renderings of many of the terms you seek. It would be reasonable to expect that Ainsworth would have many of those that pertain to the British political system. IacobusAmor 05:56, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

A parliament implies a parliamentary system in which the executive is answerable to the body as opposed to a presidential system where the separation of powers is stricter and heads of government are independent of the legislative body. Congresses are for presidential system governments, parliaments for parliamentary. Although it might not seem like a big deal, the difference between the two forms of government are striking. A president is more like a King that has to ask for permission to do things and has tenure so that he isn't likely to get fired. A prime minister is more like a legislator with special powers. They are considered first among equals. A president can veto bills that he doesn't like while the prime minister can only vote against it, though as the head of the majority a vote against it by all his party kills it. Also, parliamentary discourse is sometimes a bit nastier, especially during times of conflict. You can't really yell at a president without the Secret Service staking your house out but Members of Parliament can berate the prime minister with nasty things during Prime Minister Questions. The Magna Charta says parliamentum, therefore I think that we can use that instead.

A possible problem with that is that quite a few centuries have elapsed between Magna Charta and the present day, and languages (including Latin) change. The English call their highest legislative body their parliament, and have long since given up calling it their witenagemot. Of course parliamentum will be readily understood by novices, and that could be a point in its favor. Generally with technical or special vocabularies (as with music, politics, religion, and so on), the problem for Vicipaedians is not to invent terms, but to find them. IacobusAmor 05:56, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It makes more sense and is understood at a glance while if you always see Congress you'll end up having to find out which kind. The original parliament, which developed in England was called the Curia Regis, for it advised the King. Not a very good name now because monarchs are usually relics and rubberstamp whatever the parliaments give them. Some countries have a plethora of parties.

Multae Factiones

I looked at Great Britain's and Canada's page and lost count, as opposed to the U.S. which has two main parties with fringe parties that never get elected and are subject to jokes. Funny named parties might be tricky. If a name is too funny like the U.K.'s "Monster Raving Loony" or "Rainbow Dream Ticket" we should translate it, add it to a index factionum and write the name in English or German or whatever language it is in next to it, as they do in Chinese and Japanese.

Department or Ministry?

I also believe that we should standardize terminology, i.e. what one would call in the U.S. a Department and in Commonwealth countries a Ministry should all be called Ministerium the same with Secretary and Minister all being called Minister. Those things are always tricky to me and the U.S. is odd for using an antiquated meaning of Secretary.

—Ainsworth defines 'secretary of state' as scriba regius, publicis rebus praepositus. It defines 'the king's private secretary' as regis scriba privatus. It defines 'a secretaryship' as officium ejus qui est ab epistolis. It defines 'a minister of state' as rerum publicarum administer. It defines 'minister of justice' as justitiae curator. IacobusAmor 05:56, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Originally the American English usage of the word minister was applied only to foreign ambassadors, a usage derived for it being used to describe the work of a missionary, and so the U.S. called the Ambassador to China the Minister of China until a couple decades ago when they changed it to the word Ambassador which is of French origin. The standardization cuts down on dead-end links to obscure names used only in one country. Another thing I want to add to my novel of writing is we need to also find a way of translating religions. When I was trying to fill in information for the Representatives, I couldn't find many religions.Andy85719 03:52, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Religions/Religio

Some religions that we need to think about translating are:

Baptist
Souther Baptist
Episcopalian
Methodist
Scientology (In some places, like Germany, considered a cult.)
Evangelists
Christian Science
Unitarian
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Amish(A group of Anabaptists who don't believe in technology and still live in houses without electricity, grow large beards, ride carriages, and grow their own food.)
Quakers(Religion with origin in England. So named because God made them quake. Richard Nixon was a Quaker, although this isn't a reflection all Quakers)
The English List of religions has a ridiculous number of listed religions. By no means do we need this many.Andy85719 03:52, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Blank talk pages

I am having troubles with (only) some talk pages. They are displayed blank (without content, headers and even navigation). What's going on? --Rolandus 18:50, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Out of ten pages that I checked more or less randomly, only two were non-blank. --Neander 19:30, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Same problem with Vicipaedia:Porta_communis. --Rolandus 19:21, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Andy's was blank when I checked, and I hope he reads my query about legatus before he finishes hundreds more Congressional articles! IacobusAmor 19:40, 3 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

'See also the messages on Usor:Avitus' userpage (yes, userpage, not talkpage). --Rolandus 06:15, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

To whom shall we report this problem? It's not solved yet. --Rolandus 06:15, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I too have the same problem, thank you for your help.--Massimo Macconi 06:30, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

List of pages which are displayed blank

(please add the pages which do not work for you)

• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicipaedia:Porta_communis --Rolandus 07:33, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Andy85719 --Rolandus 07:34, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Massimo_Macconi --Rolandus 07:38, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Latineloquor1 --Rolandus 07:38, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Avitus --Rolandus 07:38, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Amphitrite --Rolandus 07:39, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Thoma_D. --Rolandus 07:40, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Neander --Rolandus 07:40, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Fabullus --Rolandus 07:41, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:IacobusAmor --Rolandus 07:42, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
• http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputatio_Usoris:Irenaeus --Fabullus 08:20, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Seems it has been fixed

I have reported that as a bug to http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/.

Another user has reported that problem as well: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10795

--Rolandus 09:16, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Reporting technical problems

Please see Vicipaedia:Reporting technical problems. --Rolandus 10:42, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Wikicharts

What people are interested in: http://toolserver.org/~leon/stats/wikicharts/ --Rolandus 16:00, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Discretiva_pages

If we have a page Titan (satelles), we should also have a page Titan, I think. So I checked our pages for such cases:

Vicipaedia:Dump/latest#Discretiva_pages

At least Titan should be a redirect to Titan (satelles).

--Rolandus 20:15, 4 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Agreed -- a redirect to begin with. Someone then might replace the redirect with an article about the mythological Titans. That should be a useful "dump", Rolande. I'll take a look. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:53, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

We have several options. We have ...

• Atlas (architectura)
• Atlas (discretiva)
• Atlas (mythologia)

We could ...

• make Atlas a redirect to Atlas (discretiva)
• make Atlas a redirect to the "main" meaning of "Atlas", maybe Atlas (mythologia)
• move Atlas (discretiva) to Atlas
• move the "main" meaning (maybe Atlas (mythologia)) to Atlas.

What method is the best might differ from case to case. --Rolandus 11:18, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Objections_to_the_proposed_changes_to_the_side_bar

Are there any objections? Please see Disputatio_Vicipaediae:Pagina_prima#Objections_to_the_proposed_changes_to_the_side_bar. --Rolandus 11:09, 5 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Can we do #1 and #2? (see Disputatio_Vicipaediae:Pagina_prima#Objections_to_the_proposed_changes_to_the_side_bar) --Rolandus 18:50, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I'd say yes. Separately, I also vote, as a temporary measure, to rename "Fasciculos in Communia onerare" and "Fasciculos onerare" to "Documenta in Communia apponere" and "Documenta apponere", respectively.--Rafaelgarcia 19:44, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Percentage_of_anonymous_edits

See Vicipaedia:Census#Percentage_of_anonymous_edits. --Rolandus 19:09, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Navigation

I have changed the file MediaWiki:Sidebar and added two new links, according to Disputatio_Vicipaediae:Pagina_prima#Objections_to_the_proposed_changes_to_the_side_bar. So it is done partly. --Rolandus 05:31, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Did the next step, see http://la.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&curid=34091&diff=310801&oldid=310247 --Rolandus 06:59, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Latinitas

Vicipaedia:Latinitas seems a useful starter page but I didn't see any links to it from Pagina prima, Porta communis, or Auxilium pro editione pages. Maybe I missed them, or maybe I need to add some? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:40, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Declension of Acronyms

Is there a Vicipaedia policy or norm regarding declension of acronyms such as CFA or URSS? Should acryonyms be regarded as undeclinable or should for example CFA be treated like an a-declension noun? genitive =>CFAe Or as a i-declension after civitates? genitive=>CFAum.--Rafaelgarcia 01:20, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen this? I have no idea about policy, but it seems that USA, and so CFA, can be declined as a 1^st declension fem. --Harrissimo 20:01, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, one possiblity is to go by the last letter of the acronym in deciding which declension to tack on to the acronym. However, you should note that Ephemeris policy diverges from Vicipaedia policy on a number of issues. Ephemeris for example seems to be to preserve all acronyms in their native language forms and translate country names following cognate forms rather than literal meaning. Thus ephemeris translates United States as Civitates Unitae, even though Unitae here would mean something different in latin than in english. This is just their particular set of policies, however, and not necessarily to be copied. Our translation of United States as Civitates Confoederatae is much better and closer to the truth. --Rafaelgarcia 20:41, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Careful, Rafael, the civitates CONfoederatae are a different thing altogether. Though, even that is much closer than unitae...ewww. For my part, I would rather see acronyms indeclinable than see CFAum . . . I'd also shudder at CibusFibusA. If you absolutely need the case to be visibly apparent, I think it befits to write the abbreviation out in entirety. --Ioscius ^(disp) 23:04, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Ack. Yes, my mind wasn't all there obviously. Civitates Foederatae is the correct one. Federated States as opposed to Confederated States. Sometimes I wonder how slips like that can happen!--Rafaelgarcia 23:17, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

commons:Template:GFDL/la

Hello, would somebody be willing to translate this from commons:Template:GFDL or any of its translations? Your help would be greatly appreciated by the Wikimedia Commons community. 83.84.12.131 21:17, 14 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Qui Vicipædiam edimus?

Vide commentarium potentem: "See Who's Editing Wikipedia" (http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/08/wiki_tracker). IacobusAmor 14:14, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Quotation Marks

I have been looking at some articles and have seen some "German Quotation Marks," with the upside down quotation mark paired with a backwards quotation mark. I suggest we avoid these, for they only apply to German text and possibly some Dutch, though I am unsure. If you are not sure, just use the standard quotation marks available on most English keyboards. If you do not have them, you should use those that are provided below in the extra letter section.Andy85719 22:43, 15 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that shouldn't be the norm here, and if it is, liberally change it (per my opinion, anyways). --Ioscius ^(disp) 02:49, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Standard American (and until the past few decades British) typesetting style: double quotes (and punctuation goes inside), except for glosses, which use single quotes (and punctuation goes outside). IacobusAmor 03:04, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It's true, I'm afraid: we British adjust our principles (typographical at least) when the wind changes. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:56, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Literature

I'm developing a fuller article about literature to go at Litterae. Logically litterae demand writing; therefore (I think) I have to start a parallel article about "orality" / "oral literature" / "oral tradition". It seems to me that Traditio is a good classical term for this concept; I prefer it to the neologistic "Oralitas", while "Litteratura oralis" feels like a contradiction in terms (though similar names are used in other languages). What do others think? Can I use traditio in this sense? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:35, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

And meanwhile there is some discussion of the best terms for "drama" (i.e. stage play) and "fiction": if interested, please look at Disputatio:Mythistoria and the older discussions linked to that page! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:51, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Questions_about_the_levels_of_latinitas

Please see Disputatio_Vicipaediae:Latinitas#Questions_about_the_levels_of_latinitas. --Rolandus 12:30, 18 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Punctum aut comma decimalis?

Ecce Disputatio Vicipaediae:Auxilium pro editione (latine)#Punctum Decimale et Comma decimalis‎. Rogo ut votes.--Rafaelgarcia 15:59, 18 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Levels of Latinitas

Rogo ut inspicias propositum hic: Disputatio Formulae:Latinitas#A revised proposal for Latinitas grading. An tibi placet? An vis accipere?

Please look at the proposal at Disputatio Formulae:Latinitas#A revised proposal for Latinitas grading. Do you like it? Could you work with it? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:19, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Sententias meas addidi.--Ioscius ^(disp) 13:51, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

problema

ho cercato disperatamente di registrami, ma il sistema non mi accetta. ho azzerato le protezioni di ogni tipo, senza risultato. vi sono problemi ne programma? bepi

Hmmm, ciao Bepi. Io ho creato questo utente senza probleme. Forse lo tenti di nuovo? --Ioscius ^(disp) 23:41, 22 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

You need to have cookies enabled in your browser.

If there is still a problem, please describe the problem in more detail (which steps did you try? what error message is shown?) --UV 17:32, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Usor 217.220.77.199

The usor 217.220.77.199 apparently has been blanking out several pages in the italian and latin wikipedias. I think perhaps it would be wise to block his IP address.--Rafaelgarcia 13:48, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Done. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:18, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Helipad

Seems to be quite an elusive word in latin. I need this word for a translation of the English Airport formula. None of the well known neologism websites go much further than helicopterum. Since we have Aeroportus, I guess we'd have Heliportus for Heliport?

Some quick ideas for helipad:

• helicopterum = Helicopter
• Hélisurface and plate-forme hélicoptère are the French words = Helisuggestus/Heliconstratum?
• Hubschrauberlandeplatz is German (helicopter landing place, I think), but I guess Latin isn't as big on compound words?
• to land (v.) appellere sidere
• landing (n.) appulsus, -ūs

--Harrissimo 15:13, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Helipad = "Helicopter landing place" My best would be "egressus Helicopterorum" or "situs Helicopterorum"

or a neologistic forshortenings "Heliegressus" or "Helisitus" (both 4th declension)--Rafaelgarcia 15:56, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, to be a stickler, we have two roots here: heliko + pter. I balk at truncating the root as english would, but something like helicositus sounds like a merry-go-round more than a helipad. I like Rafael's suggestion, the best, with egressus being better, in my opinion, than situs. --Ioscius ^(disp) 16:04, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Area might also work. If you really must have a one-word term, then... um... probably something like helicopterarium is going to be necessary, ugly as it is. Another thing: appellere does mean to land a ship, and I do sometimes use it for air- and space-craft (I once wrote an elegiac poem in which the aquila appulit), but it might be more appropriate to use a verb that means "alight," such as sido. --Iustinus 16:32, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Area was the first word that came to mind. Helicoptera super area sidunt 'Helicopters land on a landing-pad'. Aeroplana super campo sidunt 'Airplanes land on a landing-strip'. OK? IacobusAmor 17:22, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

So if it was in the formula, or without reference to a helicopter, I'd have the Helicopterareum, but if it was obvious that I was referring to the helicopter and I'd said it already in the sentence (like Iacobus' above), I would just say area? --Harrissimo 20:38, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I must say I like Helicopterareum. Not only does it contain all the right elements, it's also difficult to misunderstand. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:11, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It's long but gets the job done nicely.--Rafaelgarcia 21:18, 23 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I must say the derived word helicopterarium (cf. harenarium) suggested by Iustinus is definitely the best proposal so far. Helicopterareum is as weak as **harenareum. --Neander 03:07, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Is Helicoptera super aria sidunt possible? --Harrissimo 21:15, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Harrissimo, how do you say it in English? (Notice that -arium in helicopterarium is a derivational suffix, not a free word.) --Neander 21:57, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

We say "Helipad". So it would stay as Helicoptera super area sidunt but when there is doubt as to what the area could be, it would be a Helicopterarium? --Harrissimo 22:00, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Iustinus (above) suggested helicopterarium for 'helipad' [cf. helicopter-arium, haren-arium, gran-arium; NB: the -arium suffix has nothing to do with the noun area]. For my part, I accept this formation. If you have to say in Latin "A helicopter has landed on the helipad", I'd suggest Helicopterum in helicopterarium appulsum est. (Appello is a handy nautical metaphor in line with other nautical metaphors in the aviation terminology.) --Neander 23:06, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit repetitive, though. As long as the purpose of the space is otherwise specified or implied, area does very nicely as a word for a "space with a purpose" (hence I liked "helicopterareum", which seemed to incorporate it!) I would have said that Helicoptera super aream (sg.) / areas (pl.) sidunt is quite neat. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:02, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well, what was repetitive indeed was the example sentence I used in order to illustrate a grammatical point. When writing current texts, there are many ways to avoid repetitiveness. The word helicopterarium is an answer to the question of what might "helipad" be in Latin. There are a lot of words in Latin that have been formed on the same pattern.

Re super + acc: Notice that super isn't the exact counterpart of Engl. on. While on implies contact with the surface, super doesn't. Super means 'above'. In this case, English on is Latin in or ad, depending on the situation we want to describe. Neander 14:24, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Re super + acc.: yes, it can imply contact: ait Ainsworth, s.v. super: "1 Upon. . . . Demetrius super terræ tumulum noluit quid statui, nisi columellam, Cic." IacobusAmor 14:51, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Re super + abl.: yes, it can imply contact: ait Ainsworth, s.v. sido: "1. To perch, or light, as birds do. . . . Geminæ super arbore sidunt columbæ." IacobusAmor 14:51, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Re sido: If navis sidit (incl. aeronavis), I wouldn't like to be on board, because sidit means 'is sinking'. "I'm landing the helicopter on this place" would be Helicopterum in hunc locum appello; "the helicopter is landing on this place" is helicopterum in hunc locum appellitur. Believe me, appello is the terminus technicus for nautical and aviational landing. Neander 14:24, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

That may well be, but birds settle on branches, not at all unlike the way helicopters settle on helipads, but quite different from the way sailing-ships berth themselves: roughly, sailing-ships land by moving horizontally, but birds & helicopters land by moving vertically. The first definition of sido in White's dictionary is "To seat one's self, sit down; to settle, alight." ¶ Additional idioms for 'to land' (a ship) appear to be navem terræ, ~ ad terram, applicare and terram tangere and arenâ potiri. IacobusAmor 14:51, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Iacobe, we are dealing with subtle differences of construing situations and expressing them by means of linguistic constructions. A look at lexical entries is a good beginnig, but then it's often necessary go ad fontes. Geminæ super arbore sidunt columbæ is from Vergilius [Aeneis 6, 203 & co(n)text]. It's the question of two sacred doves which Aeneas asks to guide him to the grove where the golden bough is to be found. When the two doves come to Avernus, they rise and perch on their chosen bases on the top of a tree: sedibus optatis geminae super arbore sidunt (v. 203 totus). Earlier, Vergilius had told how the doves came flying from the sky and alighted on the green grass: viridi sedere solo (v. 192). Now it can be seen that, for Vergilius, the proper construction is sidere + abl.loci. The prepositional phrase super arbore is a free adverbial specifying the location of the (two respective) "landing sites" chosen by the doves (sedes optatae) in the tree. No contact involved.

Do we have enough examples to be sure it's ablative of place and not dative of reference? IacobusAmor 11:29, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Neander 11:54, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Demetrius super terræ tumulum noluit quid statui, nisi columellam is from Cicero [De legibus 2, 66]. In his archaeological remarks on this very passage, Jochen R.A.Twele (The J.Paul Getty Museum Journal 2, 1975, 93-98) proposes rendering "Nothing should be built above the mound of earth except a small column" (p. 98).

Or 'He wanted nothing to be built upon [~ on ~ over] the barrow except a pillar." Lots of wordings are possible. Contact here is of course implied. ¶ Super can evidently mean much more than 'above': it can bear notions of 'upon, on, over', and possibly even '(down) from', as in: "Non suspendunt super arbore, quae radicibus solo adhaereat; sed super ligno eradicato, ut ne sit excisio molesta: nam lignum, super quo fuit aliquis suspensus, cum suspendioso sepelitur; ne maneat illi malum nomen, et dicant homines, Istud est lignum, in quo suspensus est ille, o deina." Maimonides, apud Casaub. in Baron.Exercitat. xvi. An. 34, Numbers 134 (found via Google). ¶ Note too that this super quo suspensus seems equivalent to in quo suspensus. IacobusAmor 11:42, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Be that as it may, it strongly seems to me that super isn't the right preposition to use with sidere. On the other hand, I concede to you that sidere may very well be used in describing the landing of a helicopter, but then the construction must be sidere + ablative. So, "the helicopter is landing on this place" would be helicopterum hoc loco sidit. In fact, the avian metaphor you suggested hits the nail on the head. (Hah! Given the avian metaphor, maybe "helipad" could be rendered as nidus ... :-) --Neander 02:48, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Let me be clear that I personally use both verbs, but I sometimes worry that, as Iacobus says, aircraft do not "berth themselves." I suppose it could be a question of emphasis: are you talking about the physical touchdown, or the full procedures of landing? Or maybe not. One friend (more an aeropspace person than a Latinist) suggested that appellere might mean "to dock," but I don't think I buy that. --Iustinus 19:55, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the above lines (in reply to Iacobus noster) many hours ago but hadn't the opportunity to send it before now. (And, again, I'm in a hurry.) But now I think I fully support the idea of using both verbs: helicopterum loco suo sidit, navis ad/in locum suum appellitur. How about aeroplanum? My proposal is appellitur, and I now see that Reijo Pitkäranta agrees with me (or, krhm, I agree with him :-). What do you think? --Neander 03:02, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the ships & airplanes arrive differently: ordinarily when ships land, they simultaneously dock (link up with a wharf); after airplanes land, they often spend an annoyingly long time taxiing around before they dock (link up with a docking device, which leads to a concourse or whatever). ¶ Apparently, sido a can be a technical term, with the sense '(of a ship) run aground', or as L&S have it, 'stick fast' (on sand bars, reefs, &c.)—so maybe it's not such a good idea after all. Oh well. IacobusAmor 11:17, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Natural languages tend not to use different verbs for any conceivable type of landing. Engl. to land and Lat. appellere are both general enough to capture a piece of the phenomenal reality around us. Neander 11:54, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Nidus is a very nice idea! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:04, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

So to conclude:

• helicopterum = Helicopter
• helicopterarium = Helipad
• heliportus = Heliport
• to land (v.) appellere
• landing (n.) appulsus, -ūs
• The helicopter landed on(to) the helipad = Helicopterum super aream appulit

Am I right? --Harrissimo 13:39, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Habemus fontem

De Patre Foster pellicula, ca. 2:33. --Iustinus 03:13, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Gratias tibi. Sed credo nostrum heliportus melius esse quam suum helicopterorum portus.--Rafaelgarcia 03:39, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Dissentio modo. 'heli' non est morphema...si necesse est ab Patre Foster differre, ad minimun scribendumst helicoportus...--Ioscius ^(disp) 13:33, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Videtur heliportus solumodo est versio helicopterorum portus abbreviata. In literatura latina, numquam antea habuimus fontem de abbreviato simili? Mirem, nisi habuimus.--Rafaelgarcia 17:09, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Hem, talia abreviationes non valde latinae sunt. Neque heliportus neque helicoportus mihi reapse placent, tamen hoc saltem a) ex duobus morphematibus decernibilibus (heli- nihil significante), b) alludit verbo helicoptero, cui paene anagramma est. Sed ut confitear, neutrum verbum mihi aptissimum videtur. Et praeterea cum sane liceat dicere "heliportum" inter amicos, nihilominus nonne hic solemus locutiones iam attestatas verbis noviciis a nobis confictis anteponere? --Iustinus 18:06, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Attestatum? Dicisne de excerpto visifico de Patre Foster? Cedo Helicopterorum portus vere esse commendatum. Sed, quamquam aptum, sentio hoc non esse verbum, sed descriptio. Si discrepas, intellego. Saltem, de hoc mea sententia est sic..--Rafaelgarcia 18:35, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC).

Ut for "that"?

Salve iterum, potores! Could one of you proofread the origo nominis section at Caiania for me please? I think some of the sentences may be missing ut or another filler of the English "that", but I'm not sure where to use ut other than instances (in order that/to). --Harrissimo 02:30, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Tituli diariorum

New articles on newspapers are being added and maybe we should make a general decision whether the titles should be translated or not. I raised this issue at Disputatio:Tempora Novi Eboraci: if interested, please comment!

Habemus nonnullas paginas novas de diariis: fortasse debemus iudicare an tituli vertendi sunt necne. S. t. p. vide Disputatio:Tempora Novi Eboraci! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:24, 25 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

We have two that set the style:

The New York Times (Tempora Novieboracensia)

The Wall Street Journal (Diurnum Murivicense)

(Note that the boldfaced lemmas are in italics.) Do we have categories for each of these kinds of periodicals: (1) newspapers, (2) magazines, (3) journals of learned societies? IacobusAmor 22:05, 26 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Crusades

Nonnullae paginae de "crusades" sunt (e.g. Willelmus Tyrensis, Index regum Hierosolymitanorum), sed estne verbum quod latine "crusade" valet? In lingua mediaevali, "crucesignatus" valuit "crusader", nullum autem verbum "crusade" erat. "Bellum sacrum", "peregrinatio", "via Hierosolymitana", et cetera, dicitur. Adam Episcopus 14:04, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Ah, video Expeditio sacra et Prima Cruciata! Adam Episcopus 17:43, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

There was some debate about this though, see Disputatio:Prima Cruciata for some sourcing etc. --Iustinus 19:56, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Portals

Hmm, if we're foing to be starting portals, probably the single subject about which we have the most articles would be food & drink. And of course the most important subject to make a portal for would be Living Latin. --Iustinus 21:46, 27 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

There are also loads of great pages linking from astronomia about constellations, planets, moons etc. Of course, if we were to make portals official (or more official than our portal is now), we would need to import the tricky looking portal interfaces. Harrissimo.

classical or vulgar?

in which latin are articles here written?--04:09, 28 Augusti 2007 208.0.111.60

I think the goal of Vicipaedia editors is to write in a style as close to classical latin as possible but taking advantage vocabulary from later periods such as midieval and modern. You can judge for yourself by looking at our articles. I am not certain what you mean by "vulgar". Vulgate bible?--Rafaelgarcia 04:27, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean by Vulgar. No, our aim is Classical. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:01, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

For example, this text is Vulgar Latin:

...in loco que vocitant Elzeto cum fueros de totas nostras absque aliquis vis causa, id est, de illa costegera de Valle Conposita usque ad illa vinea de Val Sorazanes et deinde ad illo plano de Elzeto et ad Sancta Maria de Vallelio usque ad illa senra de Pobalias, absque mea portione, ubi potuerimus invenire, et de illas custodias, de illas vineas de alios omnes que sunt de alios locos, et omnes que sunt nominatos de Elzeto, senites et iubines, viriis atque feminis, posuimus inter nos fuero que nos fratres poniamus custodiero de Sancta Maria de Valle Conpossita... --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 20:19, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Is that Vulgar Latin, or a medieval charter written by a busy notary who hadn't really learned classical Latin very well? Adam Episcopus 04:21, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Vista, somebody can help me!

I have a new PC with vista but I do not find any more the buttons to write and correct pages (nexus, parenthesis etc. ) Someone could help me, thank you Massimo (also the signature button is not there)

Aperuisti conventum tuum? (Mihi quoque est Vista.) IacobusAmor 17:46, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

tibi gratia ago, sed conventum iam apertum est.

Not a huge help, bur probably worth mentioning: you can sign by typing four tildas (--~~~~) --Iustinus 18:32, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Fortasse alio browser utendum (e.g. Mozilla)?

thank you but I wouldn'try with on other browser till I 'm not sure it can't work with internet explorer, because I worry I would do worse--Massimo Macconi 18:58, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC). For the moment I work with "taglia e incolla" but it is very difficult

problem solved. It was only the protection level, I reduced it for the area wikipedia and now all the buttons work. In any case thank you friends for all your suggestions. Ciao--Massimo Macconi 17:26, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yeah at one point I had trouble with Firefox and can therefore sympathize with the relief upon finding the solution!--Rafaelgarcia 17:30, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Diocese

Ave vicipaediani (I am lat-1 ;) ),

Massimo Macconi asked me if I can repeat for latin wikipedia the upload of catholic diocese, and I am glad to help; so I ask you if it is ok for you to upload 3000~ catholic diocese stubs

I can generate the diocese articles processing data from

• data source: website www.catholic-hierarchy.org

the data that I can obtain from that site resemble this

• partially processed data example: here

I am writing a Java program to parse that data and obtain a latin wikipedia article (this will take some time from myself... obviously any Java + XML help (and an SVN to share code...) will be very much appreciated, every error corrected before upload is an error less to fix after.

In the italian wikipedia, as part of it:Progetto:Diocesi, every diocese was uploaded to wikipedia

• not-revised-by-human pages can be found in it:Categoria:Diocesi_da_controllare
• a diocese sample is it:Diocesi di León en Nicaragua
• in every page we put a table using the template it:Template:Diocesi della chiesa cattolica, similar to the table that can be found here

for every currently existing diocese (in the optimal case, some information can be missing) I can obtain:

1. the full latin diocese name
2. the city or cities of the see
3. the diocese category (diocese, archdiocese, eparchy, territorial prelature ...)
4. the diocese ierarchical category (suffragan, immediatly subject to Holy see, metropolitan)
   1. if suffragan, the name of the metropolitan diocese
   2. if metropolitan, the name of suffragans diocese
5. the personal name and title (bishop, prelate, archbishop, ...) of the current ordinary; or if diocese is vacant
6. personal names and titles of every emeritus or auxiliary bishop
7. the State (Italy, France, ...)
8. the ecclesiastical region
9. the rite (roman, armenian, ...)
10. Square Kilometers, Mailing Address, Telephone, Fax, website
11. a link to the originating site www.catholic-hierarchy.org
12. the list of every available past ordinary, with:
    1. personal name
    2. whether if venerable, blessed, saint
    3. the religious order (if applicable)
    4. the date in which he was appointed bishop
    5. the date in which he left the diocese, and why (died, resigned appointed in an other diocese <diocese name>, elected pope, ...)
13. a summary of diocese historical events:
    1. date of erection and original name
    2. any name change, with previous and new name
    3. territory split
    4. join with other dioceses
14. statistical information for a number of years after 1950:
    1. number of baptized catholic
    2. total population
    3. number of diocesan and religious priests
    4. number of male and female religious
    5. number of deacons
    6. number of parishes
    7. statistical data source (mainly the pontificial annuary)
15. of course every information that can be easily derived from these, like for example the name of the corresponding diocese in it.wiki, the years of vacancy if vacant, the catholics/population proportion, ...

a template table (like the one here) can be easily created and populated with available data, and many links can be automatically generated (links to the State page), while others can require manual intervention (the city link, to be translated into latin); a basic categorization (by state, ...) can be generated.

A basic text content can be generated from this data (look at italian diocese in this category)), I will need some help with latin of course...

Obviously a number of to_be_manually_fixed problems will surely arise after the upload (even if some would be fixable with bots); it is the hardest part of the upload work that, luckily, can be done by everyone.

I can provide you an article preview (to be discussed) in a pair of weeks, in the meantime... is it ok for you and do you have any question? --Riccardov 21:44, 28 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

My impression, based on the sample entry it:Diocesi di León en Nicaragua and the other information you give, is that this is a very good idea. I am sure you will find people here willing to improve the Latin etc. once we have an article preview to work on. What do others say? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:07, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Good idea ... each article will have interwiki links. ;-) --Rolandus 01:15, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

This all sounds good to me and Vicipaedia certainly needs more pages. I'm guessing we wouldn't have to latinise the names of these priests throughout these "3000~" pages? --Harrissimo 15:52, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I have now written articles/stubs with boxes and maps for nearly all the German dioeceses, so these articles shouldn't be overwritten "automatically" by a program. Secondly, it might have been this website: website www.catholic-hierarchy.org, where dioeceses were treated as masculines, instead of feminine words. So we must be somewhat careful. --Alex1011 20:35, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Alex I agree we must avoid overwriting your pages and also the pages of Netherland's dioceses. You did a marvellous work and it would be a shame to delete all this pages. In any case I already explained the problem to Riccardo and I hope the problem doesn't exist or it can be easily solved. I reproduce the mail I wrote to Riccardo on the 10th of August--Massimo Macconi 16:16, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Caro Riccardo,

ti ringrazio in particolare per la disponibilità al caricamento automatico. Al riguardo, naturalmente, non c'è fretta anche se mi chiedevo se si poteva cominciare subito con una piccola prova magari le diocesi di un singolo Stato, Svizzera, Francia o Italia? A tale proposito ho due domande: - come funziona se esiste già una pagina di una diocesi; - e l'aggiornamento non è automatico, immagino, ne consegue che si deve curarlo magari seguendo catholic hierarchy? Grazie mille e saluti da Lugano Massimo

paginae coustoditae

i've an idea to accelerate the modifications on the Vicipaedia. i told Massimo we can add, at the end of the pages, a note telling smthg like haec pagina custodita est ab usoribus: ... (i'me not sure of my latine so it would smthg like: this page is in the watchlist of these users: ...). it would allow us to know who is interested by the pages and to send some messages to these users. if we see a page which is not in a watchlist, we can ask other users to follow this one. Massimo told me we must add a sentence telling this page is not the page of these users and that everybody can make modification and add his/her name if he add this page in his/her watchlist. tell me what you think about. -- Thoma D. 08:27, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Hanc notionem amo, sed puto verba in pagina 'disputatio' scribere debere. Index custodintum usorum in re esse non debet. -- Secundus Zephyrus 22:43, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I note your answer in my head and, when i'll begin to add these modifications, i'll do it in the 'disputatio' page, as you asked it. i'll wait the end of the week and, then, if there is no objection, i'll begin to change the pages in my watchlist. but before, we have to choose a sentence. i thought to "haec pagina custodita est ab usoribus:" tell me what you think about. -- Thoma D. 08:53, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Secundus Zephyrus: if this is to be done at all, the note should to go on the talk page, I think. Article pages are encyclopaedic and anonymous.

However, we should note that this idea was tried on en:wiki: see en:Template:Maintained. About 1500 articles are linked to that template, which is a very small number out of nearly 2 million! The idea has never become popular. As it happens, I am listed there for one article: as a result, I once got a message with a question about the topic. That's all. Not much result, therefore, in my experience.

It was also tried on fr:wiki, where there must once have been a template Modèle:Suivi par. It has been deleted, suggesting that maybe a decision was reached to stop the idea. I don't know any more about that, though. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I don't know when these decisions to create those templates was taken in french and english, but here, we have the problem that a lot of article are very small and need more informations. last time, i went on a page talking about roman numbers and i send a message in the disputatio page. i recieved no response. so i searched if the page was in a watchlist ans i didn't see it because i can't. now, i'm waiting for a response and i don't if it doesn't come because of a lack of people following the modifications of this page or because of all people followig the modifications are not there yet. i think we can create fastly some new articles or add fastly some modifications in articles if we know who is watching our modifications. moreover, if i see there is a new modification on a page, i need to know if the latine is correct and if informations are correct. if i see nobody watch modifications, i know there is a problem with this page. i don't think this template is needed in some encyclopedy like in french or in english because there is a lot of people reading articles. i did a little experiment, in latine, there was 500 modifications between the 29 VIII (00:31) and the 30 VIII (13:31) (ie a mean of around 13,5 modifications per hour)and, in french, there was 500 modifications between the 30 VIII (13:11) and the 30 VIII (13:32) (ie a mean of 697,7 modifications per hour). we can't compare those two encyclopedies. hoping that help to change your point of view. (sorry for my english which is very bad). -- Thoma D. 11:37, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Actually I have no objection to trying the idea, but I don't see how it would have helped in the case you mention. It seems no one was watching that page, so no one would be named in the template. You would still not get any help. But in fact we already have a solution to the problem you had: if no one answers your question on a specific talk page, you can repeat the question here in the Taberna, or you can post a message here saying "Please look at the discussion at Disputatio:Francia." This is often done, and it seems to work.

Still, I am not raising any objection: I am just uncertain what the benefit will be. Maybe, if the experiment is tried, I will learn! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:59, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Another reason this was abandoned on en: is because it would let vandals know which pages they could get away with vandalizing. Who will stop them, if they know no one is watching? Adam Episcopus 04:23, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

It think our articles are well watched. ;-) So we might not have this vandalism problem. However, watching does not mean reacting on a question. In my opinion a message in the taberna is the best way to attract attention. I personally do not use the watchlist, since I am mostly watching the recent changes. Sometimes I miss something, so a note in the taberna can help. Generally I think it is a good idea to mark the articles in which someone is interested very much. Some users have only a few "babies" and will appreciate this template but I can understand that it would be extra work for the busy editors. This template (placed on the talk page) could help some people and could help some articles. It should be optional and who wants to use it can use it. --Rolandus 01:42, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

good morning everybody. i think this is a way to prevent vandals from vandalizing. if i see a page which is not in a watchlist and if i am not interested by this page, i put a message in the taberna or somewhere else telling : warning, the page ... is not in a watchlist. if someone in interested by this page, please add it in your watchlist and add a note in that page. by this way, i mean all pages would be at least in one watchlist and that will prevent vandalism. moreover, there is no obligation to tell we have a page in our watchlist, there is NO OBLIGATION. Vicipaedia is a libera encyclopedia. now, if i post a message in a disputatio pagina, and i see nobody is answering me, it's like the redactors of this page are telling : "hey, i'm a page where you can tell all you want, nobody's watching there is no vandalim, let's go!!!". that's just my point of view. -- Thoma D. 07:19, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Thoma, you haven't yet told us what your original question was and where it was placed! Is it a secret? You could still follow the usual method, repeat the question here, and get an answer!

As to making sure that all pages are on a watchlist, well, from the vandalism point of view it may be better to leave that matter vague. I mean, we have over 15,000 pages now, and a fairly small group of regular editors. And (speaking for myself) the fact that a page is on my watchlist wouldn't guarantee I know the answer to every question! Actually I often work like Rolandus -- I watch the recent changes, especially by unknown users. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:25, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Every page here is on everyone's watch list. The rapidity of response depends on the nature and overtness of the damage and attention needed: overt major vandalism, junk, spurious links, poor contributions, grammar errors, bad latin or non-latin, format errors, comments on disputatio, hardly all deserve the same degree of immediate attention.--Rafaelgarcia 13:57, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

as i told it, my question was: "what do you think about the creation of this template?" but i see most of users disagree this creation so, i will not insist anymore... __ Thoma D. 17:01, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Roman numbers, J and U

Do we have the right to use Roman numbers like DCLXV on Vicipaedia ? It looks so much better.

Can I write an article using "i" instead of "j" and "v" instead of "u" ? I hate middle-age Latin... Did Romans really use "v" instead of "u" in minuscule letters, or was it only for capital letters ? Pirate

Pirate, vide paginas de hoc apud Vicipaedia:Auxilium pro editione (latine).Salve!--Rafaelgarcia 13:38, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Pirate it is against the rules to delete other people's comments on talk pages including the Taberna. Thanks,--Rafaelgarcia 19:06, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Also you should not delete your own comments.--Rafaelgarcia 19:08, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Pirate, you tried to delete this (and following sections too) again. you've already been warned about this. Please do not do it again. --Iustinus 07:04, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Who can correct my mistakes in a small article?

I made a small article. Something like 5 lines but I'd like someone to correct my mistakes before I post (I don't want my teachers to see my noob mistakes...) so I want to post something without mistakes.

Can anyone help me ? :) Pirate

You should not misrepresent other people's work as your own to your teachers.--Rafaelgarcia 19:09, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well this would be MY work...but corrected by professionals. Nothing wrong with that. I am showing Vicipaedia to my teachers. I want to show them an article I did myself but if there are too many mistakes they will laugh at me :(

Help me please, if they like Vicipaedia they will probably start contributing... Pirate

They will like it as much or more so if you show them how editors here helped fix mistakes you make. That is part of what Vicipaedia is all about.--Rafaelgarcia 19:40, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing the article in question is Anglariae (Vigenna)? --Harrissimo 19:55, 29 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's right. As you can see it's going to be a small article...I started to learn Latin 3 months ago and I am really noob so I just wanted some help...but not in public. That's all. Pirate

Vicipaedia is a collaboration. It's all public: you see it in the Historia and on the Disputatio page. Private editing is not really what Vicipaedia is about. It's great to have started the article; it's great to work with other people on improving it. Your teachers will certainly understand this. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:08, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Native speakers make mistakes in their own language, both of speaking and of hearing (the latter variety, for example, may be how "same-o same-o" became "same-old same-old"), so don't hesitate out of a misplaced fear of making a mistake. IacobusAmor 12:08, 30 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I agree that what has been explained above is the idea how Wikipedia works. However, as Pirate explained, there might be sometimes reasons when you do not want to ask something publically. So, if there are users who are willing to answer questions privately (via "Litteras electronicas usori mittere"), we could make a list. I assume Pirate only wants that someone tells him his most embarrassing mistakes before publishing ... right? --Rolandus 01:59, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Classical Latin, Late Latin or Vulgar Latin?

Which period of the Latin language is that we should use here? I ask it because sometimes it seems Vulgar or Late Latin to me, and other articles are written in Classical Latin. Thank you! --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 20:01, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Vicipaedia:Taberna#classical_ or vulgar.3F. We try to use classical but use neo-latin and vulgar latin to express modern concepts. --Harrissimo 20:10, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

From what I've observed everyone aims for classical latin grammar with allowance and acceptance of medieval and modern vocabulary to express modern ideas. Of course, our individual abilities in accomplishing this vary. I myself I'm keenly interested in science and have striven to write good pages on physics topics. However, along the way I often run into the problem that most dictionaries out there ignore later latin vocabulary that is necessary for scientific writing. Old words often aquire new meanings in scientific contexts and new words are continuously introduced. Thus we have frequentia and volumen having very different meanings than in Ciceronian latin, but which are attested in medieval and later scientific latin writing.--Rafaelgarcia 20:18, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

"Clip" and music videos

Yes, that's true! For example we need to translate words like video clip and it would be impossible in Classical Latin. I've created the expression pellicula musicalis for that. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 20:41, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that is the best translation for video clip. If I saw the term Pellicula musicalis it would mean to me a musical movie or musical, see for instance en:musical film.--Rafaelgarcia 21:23, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

TheMexican, your musicalis, -e apparently isn't classical usage, which preferred musicus, -a, -um. If by video clip you mean the videos that MTV used to show most of the time (though they didn't use to be called video clips), is something wrong with (plain old) pellicula? IacobusAmor 21:45, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm referring to the short Music Videos that music channels play. Some songs of the singers usually have a video. In most languages it is called video clip from English, though I didn't know that in English actaully it does not mean the same. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 21:59, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

The word clip often implies an excerpt, so a video clip could be a ten-second excerpt from a two-hour performance. If you're referring to the things that last two to three minutes (except Thriller and November Rain and some other unusually long videos) and are just visual accompaniments to songs, those are just plain videos. IacobusAmor 22:04, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "Pellicula" implies a full length movie or a short that's significantly longer than the average music video. "Videomusica" is my preferred term. It's close to the English term. Also, some languages use "videomusic", and "videomusica" is the Latinized version of this term.-Kedemus 07:05, 23 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I see, thank you for the explanation. I think the confusion in other languages might come from the fact that clip means a short part in English, so the word has been introduced into other languages meaning "short video film" and from this, "video clip". And can I say "video" also in Latin? Because basically it means "I view". --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 22:09, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Though frecuencia in Spanish means something like "often", but it is the noun for it ("often" is frecuentemente) :)--TheMexican ^(scribe!) 20:48, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

See our frequentia page for more on this. In ciceronian times, the word Crebritas was used for frequency while frequentia meant crowdedness or multitude, and frequens means frequented not often. It seems that Romance languages got many of these terms from late latin scientific/medical usages which were somewhat distant from the classical usages.--Rafaelgarcia 21:20, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Of course, there is no doubt! As romance languages are a direct continuation of Latin, they are modern dialects of Latin, not somthing else. I read in my book about the History of Spanish Language that spoken Latin was already very different in the 1st century BC. Moreover, another book of Romanistics says that maybe the language we call "Classical Latin" never existed but it was an artificially created language by poets, and the real Latin spoken by people was always different. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 21:39, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Although there is some truth in that the written language is different from the spoken, for the most part I think the statement is a lot of bunk. Every written language is different than the spoken, including modern spanish and english. People don't speak english the way the write it, and I'm not simply refering to the pronunciation, the actual structuring of sentences is different. However, if you are a native speaker, you hardly notice the difference because you are so used to it. For example, see this link. But you can find many more sources. Now is this difference significant? I don't think so. Similarly I don't think any difference between spoken and written latin was significant.--Rafaelgarcia 03:46, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Of course what I am saying is that the difference was not significant in Cicero's day. We well know that it became significant some centuries later.--Rafaelgarcia 04:00, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

It is a general view among specialists that Vulgar Latin, as a mostly spoken language, was already different in significant ways from what Cicero and Caesar wrote: in fact you can trace features in the comedy Latin of Plautus (long before) that don't come through in Cicero, but do come through in the later Romance languages. Which is good evidence.

On the other hand, "didn't exist at all" is bunk, as Rafael says. If "a book of Romanistics" really says that, the book is written by a fantasist. Cicero and Caesar existed, and wrote, and spoke, and this is the linguistic register they used for writing and public speaking. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:49, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Another way we could imply that a "film" was short like a music video (even November Rain isn't so long for a "film," right?) would be the double-diminutive form *pellicella (though now that I think about it, I can't recall when the suffix is -ellus and when it's -illus) --Iustinus 22:40, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

At some point, I'm afraid, we must stop evading and face the terminological world of video technology, if we're supposed to hang along with other Wikis and assert Latin as a full-fledged means of communication, cui nil humani alienum est. Rafael says (above): "From what I've observed everyone aims for classical latin grammar with allowance and acceptance of medieval and modern vocabulary to express modern ideas." This is my position too: let orthography, morphology and syntax be "classical" (i.e. the language codified in school grammars), but let's be pragmatic in vocabulary.

In Redmond's Glossarium, there are some (more or less home-made?) terms for video technology:

• VCR : magnetoscopium
• videocassette : videocaps(ul)a, videoarc(ul)a, videocapsella, caseta magnetoscopia
• videogame : videolusus us, lusus visIficus
• videotape : videotaenia, taenia visIfica.

I'm not sure I like all of these words. But what do you think? Magnetoscopium brought to my mind French magnétoscope, and so I paid a visit to the Wikipédia and tried to say in Latin the first sentence:

Un magnétoscope est un appareil électronique destiné à l'enregistrement sur une bande magnétique d'un signal vidéo et du son associé.

Magnetoscopium est instrumentum electronicum ad insigne videogrammaticum et sonum ei adiunctum in taenia magnetica deponendum designatum.

vel

Magnetoscopium est instrumentum electronicum ad videosignale et sonum ei adiunctum in taenia magnetica deponendum designatum.

vel

Magnetoscopium est instrumentum electronicum, quo videosignale et sonus ei adiunctus in taenia magnetica deponuntur.

I now see that there is an article on Magnetoscopium started by Avitus. --Neander 19:11, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that we can avoid using the word video (-onis) in the long run. Re video clip, I'm with Iacobus in emphasising the "excerpt" aspect. A meticulous (stilo Vaticano :-) translation would be perhaps excerptum magnetoscopicum, but of course it's not as slick as video clip. --Neander 02:53, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

As videotape gets shortened to video, this magnetoscopium would probably get shortened to magneto (and would thereby become a pun with magneto, the obvious—and already quasi-attested in English—shortening of machina magnetoelectrica). IacobusAmor 03:50, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all these terms refer specificaly to video tape technology (well, except for video game). At conventicula the adjectival form of "television" is, for better or worse, overwhelmingly televisificus. Visificus does occur in late Latin, so perhaps we could use that as a more general term for "pertaining to video technology." Not sure what the noun would be though. --Iustinus 03:09, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

If it's of interest: in English, according to the Merriam-Webster people, videophone (ca. 1950) is attested earlier than videotape (1953). We'd never call a videophone a video, would we? For English video, we could simply add a new sense to the classical word visum, -i, n. IacobusAmor 03:50, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

The problem is precisely that visum is such a good classical word, withh very well attested meanings. ANd meanigns so banal, at that, that it would be easy to construct sentences where you couldn't tell which was meant. I will grant that this is true of many scientific Latin terms, but I really think doing it here is just asking for trouble. --Iustinus 04:02, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

OK, Stephanus Berard, weighing in by email says "Nonne "clip" est excerptum (breve)? >>>> "excerptum visificum" vel aliquid tale?" Um... in retrospect that was glaringly obvious. --Iustinus 18:41, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

LOL, as I see I've given you a hard task :))) (Another archaims of Spanish for example is película which means "film" or "movie". In Spanish there is no other word for "film", though they use largometraje literally "long play" usually for a "movie" to be presented in a cinema, and cortometraje, literally "short play" for a short "film" shown on TV. But these last ones are more special words, the average everyday used word is película. Though there exists the word filme but only as an anglicism. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 09:40, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Si potetis, amplificate rem de Thalíae. Gratias! --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 09:45, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Preparation of Fundraiser 2007

Hi, this is just a first introduction message to tell you: there is more to come. I am dealing with the Project Management of the Fundraiser 2007 and therefore will search for contacts of wikimedians who can help us to do our tasks on all projects. I am actually also building the structure for the fundraiser on Meta. We will need people who help to design buttons, translate texts of buttons, documents, sitenotices etc. Should you feel you want to co-operate please let me know. You can reach me on my meta user page or by e-mail at scretella (at) wikimedia (dot) org. If you wish to notify us that you would like to co-operate on translations, it would be nice if you used e-mail and copied the e-mail to me and Aphaia (aphaia (at) gmail (dot) com). Thank you for your attention and I hope to meet you soon! Cheers :-) -- 4 September 2007 Sabine

Non-literal Translation Challenge

Xavieri recently asked if I knew how to translate "cueste lo que cueste" which in english we would say here in the US "come hell or high water" . Obviously, the sentiment expressed does not call for a literal translation, but to translate aptly requires some knowledge of latin literature. Does anyone know the equivalent expression? From our page Sententia (gnome) the closest I can find is "Aut Caesar, aut nihil." But that may be too specific, I don't know...--Rafaelgarcia 14:51, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Depending on the context, remis atque velis ("with oars and sails"), in other words "using every possible effort." I could swear there's a synonymous Latin expression, something like punctim atque caesim ("with point and edge" or "stabbing and slashing") but I can't seem to find it now. --Iustinus 18:03, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

It is in Carlismus#Hymnus Carlistarum cueste lo que cueste/ se ha de conseguir/ venga el rey de España/ a la corte de Madrid--Xaverius 18:06, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

The expressions I mentioned would definitely work there, but frankly I think it's fine to leave that literal. In English I would not render that "come hell or high water" actually, but rather "whatever the cost." --Iustinus 18:18, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I keep meaning to comment: shouldn't the Latin form be Carolismus with an o? We say Carolus afterall, not Carlus --Iustinus 18:18, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

In the disputatio page I argued that other languages that do not use the Spanish Carlismo (Polish, German) they use C/Karlismus without the o.--Xaverius 18:22, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

OK here's a try:

Original-> cueste lo que cueste/ se ha de conseguir/ venga el rey de España/ a la corte de Madrid

english->With whatever the cost/ we must obtain / that the king of spain come/ to the court of Madrid

latin-> quocumque dispendio/ est quarendum / ut veniat Hispaniae rex / in Aulam Matritensem--Rafaelgarcia 20:40, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)Made minor changes--Rafaelgarcia 20:44, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Again, the English expression is "Whatever the cost," and I see nothing wrong with Latin "Constet quanti constet," which has the advantage of being both relatively transparant and relatively literal at th esame time. THe rest of your translation looks good at first blush, but I'm wondering if quaerendum is the best word. --Iustinus 21:28, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Gerundium Verbi Exire

Is there anyone who can tell me which is the gerund form of the verb exire? I need it for the article I'm writting. And, please, if anyone of you could check it and correct the possible mistakes, plaese again, do it!!!--Le K-li 17:54, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

exeundum according to Words.--Rafaelgarcia 18:02, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Oh I just thought maybe you are looking for exiens genrund present active participle, instead of exeundum gerundive future passive participle--Rafaelgarcia 18:05, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Thx a lot!!!!!

Now I need to know whether there is a template like this. If not, I could create it, if you agree. Thx in advance!!!!--Le K-li 18:08, 5 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Una información interesante sobre plurales latinos

Un profesor de lengua latina me explicó que el plural primordial del latín era -es, originario de la lengua protoindoeuropea. Los plurales vocálicos -i (de -us), -ae (de -a) y -a (de -um) son modernas evoluciones posteriores propias del latín. Se supone que el plural -es latino es básicamente del que procede el plural de las lenguas románicas (o neolatinas), siendo el italiano y el rumano las únicas excepciones que, como en la Latinidad oriental se perdió la -s final, eligieron el plural vocálico -i o -e para todo tipo de voces. (Disculpen que escribí en español). --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 12:53, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Creo que quieres decir moderna en sentido de moderno en el tiempo de Cesar. El latin tiene -s en el accusativo para casi todas las declinaciones menos la neutral. En la evolucion del espanol, las terminaciones del accusativo se preservaron como del singular y plural (aunque con menores excepciones). Luego perdieron la -m final del accusativo singular. En italia y rumania, eligieron preservar las formas del nominativo para el singular y plural. Mi fuente para esto es el libro "Introduccion a la historia de la lengua espanola" por Melvyn C. Resnick. El detalla los muchissimos cambios que occurieron basado en evidencias arqueologicas y linguisticas.--Rafaelgarcia 14:19, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

No sólo en los acusativos. Tiene -s también en los plurales nominativos exceptuando las palabras de raíces -a y -o. V.gr. lex/leges (ley/leyes), mons/montes (monte/montes), cantio/cantiones (canción/canciones), mensis/menses (mes/meses), etc. Pero las lenguas románicas occidentales aplicaron la -s plural del acusativo latino para las voces de raíces -a y -o, mientras que las occidentales (italiano y rumano) tomaron el plural latino de las palabras de raíces -a y -o para todo tipo de vocablos. Lo que quería decir es que originalmente, en la lengua protoindoeuropea, el plural era solamente -s, y los plurales vocálicos (-i, -ae, -a) son evoluciones posteriores en latín. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 15:18, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Aunque sí, tú también tienes razón, pues acabo de ver mi librito de latín y en los casos mencionados el plural -es de la forma nominativa coincide exactamente con el acusativo, excepto en género neutro. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 15:37, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Terminatio pluralis neutri generis in -a non propria linguae Latinae esse videtur, cum inveniatur in lingua quoque Graeca antiqua necnon in linguis Slavonicis, et terminatio pluraris feminina in -ae Lingua Latina cum Graeca antiqua (-αι) communicat. --Fabullus 13:35, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Connexionem non video. Oportet primae declensionis terminatio illam secundam determinare? --Rafaelgarcia 14:28, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Ah iam video. Dicis terminationem -a neutri generis esse e lingua Graeci, quod potest quoque terminationem -ae esse e lingua Graeci.--Rafaelgarcia 14:33, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Non valde. Simpliciter dico has terminationes cummunes esse utrique linguae, non ab altera ex altera adoptatas. Ergo stricto sensu non sunt propriae linguae Latinae, sed testantur evolutionem communem ambarum linguarum. --Fabullus 14:46, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Exacto. Se trata de eso. Mi libro "Manual de lingüística románica" (por José Enrique Gargallo Gil, Maria Reina Bastardas, Ariel, Barcelona, 2007) dice que los plurales vocálicos del italiano y rumano son excepcionales y todavía se discute si son del plural nominativo latino o si son una evolución fonética de la -(e)s plural latina (v.gr. italiano case → *casas > *cases > case, o uomini → homines > *homine > uomini). Cf. la terminación verbal de la segunda persona del singular italiano y rumano -i que evidentemente viene de una -s latina: cantas > italiano canti, español cantas. --TheMexican ^(scribe!) 15:18, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

In o-declinatione: "The PIE nominal ending *-ōs (*-o-es) serves as the foundational form for the nominative/vocative plural in many of the IE languages. . . . In Latin (as in Greek), the nominative/vocative plural was replaced at a very early stage by the demonstrative pronominal ending *-oi. -. . . The motivation for this replacement of *-ōs by *-oi appears to be the constituent unity of the pronominal and its accompanying nominal in constructions like Lat. *illoi lupōs > *illoi lupoi (= illī lupī) 'those wolves'. There are sporadic attestations of final -oe (<*-oi), as in pilumnoe poploe in the Carmen Saliare, which is of doubtful meaning but may be something like pīlumnī populī 'the armed people'. More often -ei is found, as in OINVORSEI VIREI (= ūniversī virī) 'all men' in the SC de Bacch. Final -ei developed into -ē, and then to the familiar nom. pl. -ī." And so on, from an excellent overview: Philip Baldi, The Foundations of Latin (Berlin & New York: Mouton de Gruyter, 2002), p. 315. IacobusAmor 16:25, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

In a-declinatione: "In PIE the nominative/vocative plural ending was *-eh₂es, i.e. *-eh₂ followed by the inflection *-es. Through a phonetic contraction, *-eh₂es produced the Proto-Italic ending *-ās [which] . . . was replaced in Latin by *-ai (> -ai > -ae) to give classical forms like togae 'togas' and portae 'gates'" (Baldi, p. 319). IacobusAmor 16:25, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Gratias tibi ago per amplificationem. Explicatio interessante est. --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 17:44, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Air conditioner

Traupman translates air conditioner as "Instrumentum aeri temperando". First of all, isn't it possible to make that into at most two words? Second, I'm not sure why the ablative of temperandum is being used, shouldn't it be the genitive?--Rafaelgarcia 14:57, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

How about "Aeri temperatrum"? Or air improver "Aeri amelioratrum"?--Rafaelgarcia 14:57, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I think Aëro- is pretty much an acceptable prefix, so you could have a single word term for it. I prefer temperatrum to amelioratrum. --Harrissimo 15:03, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Instrumentum aëri temperando, per Traupvir.--Ioscius ^(disp) 15:09, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes I realize. I state as much above. But why is it the ablative? Should it be genitive? And wouldn't "Aeri temperatrum" work too?--Rafaelgarcia 15:12, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Wow, yeah, sorry I completely missed that, Rafael.--Ioscius ^(disp) 18:47, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I think, it is a dative, not an ablative. Sometimes this form is to be found. In the Latin version of Harrius Potter you find for example: tapes calceis purgandis (doormat). --Alex1011 15:41, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's very helpful, dative of purpose, indicating what the instrument is for, i.e. the conditioning of the air.--Rafaelgarcia 16:04, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

In Spanish it is aire acondicionado (literally "conditioned air"), this way we can say it also in Latin, can't we? --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 15:51, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

That's not the name of the instrument though, is it? In Cuban speech, the instrument is called the "acondicionador del aire" or the "aire acondicionador" or as often "condicionador del aire" and "aire condicionador".--Rafaelgarcia 16:07, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. It means both: the air and the instrument. It is like "remote control" in English: you don't say "remote controller instrument", but "remote control". Maybe there are dialectal variants, but as I know, in Spain and Mexico it is aire acondicionado. For example you can say: el aire acondicionado se deterioró ("the air conditioner went wrong"). --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 17:54, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

For modern speech, three words may indeed be too many. Perhaps an idiom will develop from the perfectly good classical word temperator 'one that tempers, arranges, orders, governs': perhaps aeris temperator? Since temperator is a close relative of the word for the concept of "temperature" in many modern languages, the idiom would be easily learned. IacobusAmor 16:47, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes but in latin it seems that the ending -trum is preferred for an apparatus or instrument versus -tor for a human agent, hence computator computatrum, etc... So rather than aeris temperator one would use aeris temperatrum "conditioner of the air" or aeri temperatrum "conditioner for the air".--Rafaelgarcia 16:56, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Took the words out of my mouth, Rafael. --Ioscius ^(disp) 18:47, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Then will you be careful never in Latin to utter the word radiator in reference to a nonhuman thing that radiates? and never to ride an escalator? and never to do arithmetic with factors? (Yes, the agentive -tor usually implies a human agent; but note that qualifier: usually.) This -trum in computatrum etc. may etymologically be -tor + -um—that is, a neuter version of this -tor. Other possibilities for 'conditioner' with neuter suffixes indicating means or instrument are temperabrum, temperabulum, temperacrum, temperaculum. I rather like aeri temperatrum, but other possibilities remain. IacobusAmor 19:53, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I also learned that words like factor are to be avoided, although they appeared in recent Latin (Newton etc.), in favour of words like computatrum. --Alex1011 20:11, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think using computator for both computator and computatrum would cause confusion, but it seems that in latin this is the trend. I think the avoidance of -tor especially happens when there is already an attested latin meaning implying a human agent. For instance, computator was actually for a long time a job in mathematics that people worked at. In the case of ""temperator" the attested meaning is specifically a person who arranges or organizes (Words). However, some words referring to a non-human agent like resistor, capacitor, conductor, etc., are out there and part of latin technical vocabulary.--Rafaelgarcia 20:35, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

What about aëris regulator? Because temperator would refer only to the temperature, but an air conditioner regulates not only the temperature, but a lot of conditions more of the air (humidity, filtering, etc.). --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 20:23, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Well, then aëris regulatrum. By the way, temperare does not refer to temperature, but means "to regulate, to organise, to control". --Alex1011 20:31, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Dative for one. Temperare for two.--Ioscius ^(disp) 21:09, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Why aëris as a separate word, not the prefix Aëro- or Aëri- ? --Harrissimo 20:40, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Because classical Latin is the idiom, here. Why not airyconditioner in English? Aeroplanum is pretty regularized, not much we can do about that, but let's go with Aeri temperatrum. --Ioscius ^(disp) 21:09, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Aeri Regulatrum would be an apt translation for "air regulator" part of SCUBA gear which regulates the flow of air. However, it would not work so well for air conditioner IMO.--Rafaelgarcia 21:07, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Let me quote Iacobus above: "Other possibilities for 'conditioner' with neuter suffixes indicating means or instrument are temperabrum, temperabulum, temperacrum, temperaculum." As it happens, temperaculum is attested in Apuleius (while formations in -brum, -crum, -trum are, at best, possibilities generated by the system). I'd propose temperaculum aëris on the model temperaculum ferri provided by Apuleius. (By the way, beware of aëri temperatrum or aëri regulatrum! Latin doesn't normally take dative attributes, except for phrasal ones like instrumentum aëri temperando.) --Neander 22:20, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC) Vide Disputatio:Instrumentum aeri temperando--Rafaelgarcia 23:27, 9 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Oh man. I'm glad I missed this. At the conventiculum most people say the long version, but Albertus Castro prefers aëritemperatrum. I however loathe that coining on to many levels to count ;) --Iustinus 01:46, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Discussions like this depend also on the language which you use as basis for a neologism. German Klimaanlage would give something like "machina climati temperando". In "Harrius Potter" "tapes calceis purgandis" is quite close to Schuhabstreifer, but distant from "doormat". --Alex1011 07:58, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

GFDL template on Commons

Any assistance in improving the Latinitas of commons:Template:GFDL/la will be greatly appreciated! —Angr 21:22, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I gave it my best shot. The exact meaning of the english "legalese" is not easy to make out but I think the clause after the ";" means that certain parts of the cover text and other "invariable parts" (what are those?) are not covered under the GDFL licence. I edited the latin translation to suit this interpretation..--Rafaelgarcia 22:46, 10 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Take a look at en:GNU Free Documentation License, especially the section on "Secondary sections" for what invariant sections and front-cover/back-cover texts are. I think what the license is trying to say is that the invariant sections (which in the case of images is simply the file history, I believe) cannot be modified at will (which is why they're called invariant). —Angr 20:44, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Plaza de Armas (o Plaza Mayor)

¿Podría alguien decirme cómo podría traducir la expresión PLaza de Armas, o también llamada Plaza Mayor, al latín? ¿O, si la dejo en español, la debo declinar? Gracias de Antemano.--Le K-li 00:45, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Veo que hayan dos possiblidades: Centrum Oppidi = centro del pueblo, Forum = centro civico que es sitio abierto de mecatura y de asuntos estatales --Rafaelgarcia 01:54, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

¡¡Muchas gracias!!--Le K-li 18:29, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Modern latin

Is there any website where I can find some modern vocabulary (words like e.g. "computer" or "chemical reactor")? Maybe there are some discussion groups where such things are discussed? If anybody knows some - please, let me know about it.

--Nemuri 17:00, 11. Sep. 2007 (UTC)

Hi Nemuri! These links are often helpful to me when I look for these sort of things. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Sometimes you will need to think about some of the words - They won't just have examples like "widescreen TV" you would have to go hunting. (e.g. Chemical reactor would be something like Reactrum chemicum) (see Words - A huge online dictionary of English-Latin-English where you can find helpful adjectives etc. --Harrissimo 17:27, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

For computer terms see our page Computatrum there are links on the bottom of the page too. With respect to other things, it is hit or miss finding information on the internet. The links and resources at Lexica Neolatina are a good start. But with respect to scientific or chemical terminology, however, I think you will have work hard and read through some medieval texts such as can be found at Google Books and other sites.--Rafaelgarcia 17:44, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Umlauted e's with diaeresis-- Do we have a policy?

Please see Disputatio:Aër. Should we come up with a policy to put ‎in ë in title's standard and create redirects from the non-umlauted non-diaeresis version? Or is there already a policy?--Rafaelgarcia 17:29, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Corrected title above..--Rafaelgarcia 19:29, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

(The below is copied from Disputatio:Aër)

I don't agree at all. Since this is an ecyclopedia, it is necessary that we write the article's right title, and everyone editing here must do the same. It is true that it would be easier to write the diaeresisless title, but it would mean that we could start writing the other articles' titles in a more simplified way. No, I think it is better to write properly the title (with the diaeresis), and to make a simpler redirection.--Le K-li 21:02, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

--Harrissimo 21:27, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Eh, well, insomuch as the diaeresis actually makes a difference here, you may be right. But, for instance, in an article on Cooperatio, I would see absolutely no point to have one. It's an encyclipaedia, sure, but one that assumes its readers know Latin.--Ioscius ^(disp) 22:59, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

There isn't as far as I'm aware another word with the same letters aer that has a different meaning. A more significant difference is that between esse "to be" and ésse (or ēsse) "to eat". Fortunately, there aren't too many words like that! In fact I think that is the only one.

Ecce: edo, edere 'eat' & edo, edere 'put forth, publish'. IacobusAmor 00:19, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Avitus made a good point some ago about including accents to help reading. Definitely with the a and u declension it would help a lot when reading an article, helping to distinguish ablative and nominative for a, and between singular and plural/genitive in the case of u. However, we also have to consider the great additional difficulty in typing accents. I for one, at this point, have more important issues with vocabulary and grammar to deal with to spend my time worrying about accents. In the case of diereses, I admit, including the accent isn't a big deal because there are so few words with them. --Rafaelgarcia 23:46, 12 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Eh, again, I think we hope people here know how to read Latin. We're not writing poetry, here, and word order is accordingly in favor of clear syntax.--Ioscius ^(disp) 01:44, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Diaeresis is used practically everywhere, and for a good reason. If we write aer, aeris 'air' and aes, aeris 'copper', there's no way to indicate that aeris 'of copper' has two syllables, whereas aeris 'of air' has three syllables. I'd say it's next to irresponsible not to use diaeresis (e.g. aër, aëris) when it's called for. --Neander 00:26, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes I think here you are making a convincing case for including it. I hadn't been aware of that possibile confusion between aeris and aëris. I think also we should include other accents as well when the meaning of the word would be different and could not be determined easily from the context.--Rafaelgarcia 00:41, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes! It was aes I was thinking of, Rafael, not aer and aer.--Ioscius ^(disp) 01:42, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

If we include some diacritics when they are necessary, as we do in other languages like spanish, we won't have problems at reading nor understanding.--Le K-li 18:31, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Personally I am inclined towards using diaereses in text, but not in wiki titles (I'm sure I've made links such as [[aer|aër]] here before). Of course it's not fair to say diaereses are the only route: besides ae/aë, there is also æ/ae (ligature for one syllable, digraph for two), ae/ahe (more common in dialects where 'h' is silent), and of course ae/ae (the if-context-can't-determine-whether-you're-talking-about-air-or-bronze-you-might-want-to-make-your-point-a-little-clearer route) is also a well-established method, and I'm not sure we should mandate any of them: as the cases are relatively rare—compared to, say, the words affected by the I/J/U/V fiasco—I would treat them the way other wikis handle variation (such as English color/colour). —Mucius Tever 02:41, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Recent appearance or rather disapperance of pics

I've noticed that recently a lot of pics won't display properly on a page unless one clicks on them. E.g. Res novae. I verified this is the case even with Explorer on windows XP. Does anyone know what gives? Should I try monkeying with the images to get them to display properly again or is it a glitch with the wiki software that will be automatically resolved soon all by itself?--Rafaelgarcia 01:21, 17 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Insolitissimumst! Omnino nescio . . . UV, ubi es?! =] --Ioscius ^(disp) 03:17, 17 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

One of the servers' hard disks were full, which resulted in a lot of broken (zero file-sized) thumbnail pictures. The underlying problem is now fixed but it is possible that broken thumbnails still exist. Purging the image description page on commons might help, but I am not sure about the exact steps to remedy the problem. Please report images that are still broken (after clearing your browser cache) here, and I will see to it. Greetings, --UV 22:04, 17 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks, man!--Ioscius ^(disp) 23:43, 17 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

About latin template Main

I'd like to know if there is a template like the one at the english wikipedia. If not, could anybody create it? I really need it!!!--Le K-li 02:14, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

PS: I'd like to know, just in case, what's the latin word for main. [Le K-li]

I can answer q. 2! The closest translations are "principalis" and "praecipuus", I think. Our Pagina prima would translate literally as "first page", and this is maybe a better name for it than the English en:Main page. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:46, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

We have {{vide-etiam}} (which may need some improvement …) --UV 22:02, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Index automaticus

Technicians: can anything (other than a reader's use of the celare option) be done to minimize excessive whitespace sometimes created by the automatic index? The beginning of the article Tangaloa is a case in point: its overindulgence in whitespace makes for bad graphic design. IacobusAmor 12:07, 22 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

The reader can also choose never to display indexes (via preferences), but this has the unwanted side-effect of concealing certain infoboxes. I agree that in articles like this one the index box is too greedy of space. I don't have a solution, unfortunately ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:25, 22 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I do not have a general solution. While it is possible to fiddle around with the display of index boxes on a per-user basis (e. g. a certain user wishes to hide all index entries of level three, or wishes to display all consecutive index entries of level three on one line instead of each on a separate line), I would advise against changing the display generally for all users. --UV 23:31, 22 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Lateral thinking: You've no doubt considered the option of having fewer headings? The lowest-level headings could, for example, be replaced by an in-line bolded keyword, as I've done here. I guess there are reasons not to do that, however. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:30, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

On en.wikipedia the problem is usually resolved by the fact that most any subject of a decent length will have an infobox along the right-hand side that will offset it, whether showing basic information that it might be tedious to recite in text (as the taxoboxes, the nation and language infoboxes) or related articles (e.g. en:Nirvana has the "part of a series on Buddhism" box). —Mucius Tever 22:13, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Haut-commissaire

I'm trying to translate in Latine the composition of the first French government presided by François Fillon (2007). I've some difficulties to translate some functions: "Haut commissariat aux solidarités actives contre la pauvreté (High Commissioner for Active Solidarities against Poverty)" as well as "Secrétaire d'État auprès du Premier ministre, chargé de la Prospective et de l'Évaluation des politiques publiques (Secretary of State for Economic Prospective and Evaluation of Public Policies)". Could somebody help me?? Thanks in advance. -- Ricardus 10:31, 23 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the biggest problems I have encountered is to translate "Haut Commissaire" (i.e. High Commissioner) and "Politique Publique" (i.e. Public Policies). For the rest, I can find technical translation. I'm not sure of it but I've found some suggestions. But, in fact, I really find no word for these 2 expressions. Please help me... -- Ricardus 09:53, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Very sorry not to be helpful, Ricarde. Words like this are really difficult to translate because they don't always have much meaning. You may sometimes have to use a simple, reasonably close Latin word (like "procurator" for commissaire) and then add the correct French term in parentheses. What do others say? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:05, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

My first thought (in mind of colonial & postcolonial high commissioners) was legatus, but my dictionary says a commissioner (in the sense of a delegate) is a curator ad rem aliquam agendam and a delegatus. It says a commissioner appointed between two parties is an arbiter honorarius and an arbiter ex compromisso. It says a commissioner sent "to treat with foreign princes" is a syndicus, but it marks that word with special signs, indicating (I think) that it's not native Latin, or it's very very late Latin, or both. IacobusAmor 16:07, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I thank you very much for your answer! The point is I really don't care when the word I will use appeared (early or late Latine!) but I'd like to know if these words are used in other articles of Vicipaedia and, in this case, which one is used or which one you would use... I have no problem with using a word that does not look like the French one! but I want to be sure it is corect Latine. Here I think the word "procurator" is the best one (sorry Iacobus, you lost!) because the haut-commissaire is not appointed between two parties nor sent "to treat with foreign princes", I think he exists to investigate in order to find a solution to this problem in France, therefore I suppose that "pro-curator" is good... And, now, how would you say "HIGH-commissioner"
As you seem to have good ideas in Latine, I wonder, do you know hpw I can translate "Public Policies"??? Thanks for all. -- Ricardus 08:29, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

On haut-commissaire: in this word I am honestly not sure that the haut- matters very much or has much meaning. But if you prefer to give an equivalent for it, I would not say altus but maybe principalis. So we have procurator principalis. Nice alliteration, hmm?

I tentatively suggest politica (neuter plural) for public policies. There would be no need to add "public" because politica alone implies the state or the people. Maybe someone will come along with a better word.

To explain an official's duties, the gerundive can often be used. So, if his duty is to guide or to develop public policies, we could say procurator principalis politicis gerendis or ... politicis studendis or ... politicis elaborandis. Any use? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:20, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

In English, a high commissioner is especially 'an ambassadorial representative of the government of one country stationed in another' (Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary). That's the kind of high commissioner with which I've dealt, it's why legatus came to mind, and it may be the perfect word for that concept. However, the French are using haut commissariat otherwise. ¶ Procurator as defined in Ainsworth: 1. A proctor, an administrator, an agent, a proxy, a factor, a solicitor, one that seeth to another man's affairs, or he that has the charge of a thing committed to him. 2. A bailiff, or steward; one that is set over any affair, a superintendant, a supervisor. 3. A governor of a country, under any prince. 4. A lord protector, or governor, during the nonage of a young prince. ¶ For the commissioner's function, Ainsworth's has already given you (quoted above) the idiom you want: ad rem aliquam agendam. The French idea would seem to be 'for effecting active solidarities against poverty' (whatever that means). In place of such "weasel words," the old Romans might have preferred a clearer, more "concrete," rendering, like 'for helping poor people'. ¶ Policy = 'the art of governing'; there may be no need to have a word for public. Late Latin for 'policy' is politia. IacobusAmor 11:30, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Hi yall, I've seen that in France, we used to use the expression "haut commissaire" for two different meanings. The 1st one is the current meaning: a politician who's called by the government to investigate about a problem (as Martin Hirsch, nowadays) (I think that could be translated by procurator). The 2nd one is a representative of the government abroad (as Charles Guernier and André Tardieu in 1917, during the Alexandre Ribot's government, who were respectively "Haut-commissaire auprès du Gouvernement britannique pour le règlement des affaires maritimes interalliées" and "Haut-commissaire aux États-Unis") (I think that could be translated by legatus). I'd like to use the same expression in Latine to explain two different meanings of a same word in French. If somabody knows a way to resolve this problem, please help me!!! If somebody looks for a translation in English of the functions of Guernier and Tardieu, ask me! Thanks in advance -- Ricardus 16:41, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Redirect of names

I was just wondering about the spelling of names: vicipaedia is trying to use standardized Latin forms, e.g. 'Ioannes' instead of 'Iohannes' oder 'Johannes'. But as each language has different variations of names, there are probably lots of people looking for their familiar form. Would it be sensible to write Redirect-Pages for these different variations (also if historical texts show alternative spellings, e.g. 'Erigena'/'Eriugena') or would that be too much for the servers? --Partonopier 16:21, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Technically, there is no problem in creating redirects for common forms or for alternate names that the user might reasonably type in (e. g. names of persons in their native language/common form).

On the other hand, I would advise against creating redirects in every possible form (such as Giovanni Sebastiano Bach for Iohannes Sebastianus Bach) and against over-using English in the article namespace. In my view, we should also avoid redirects that no reasonable user will type in, and redirects that contain spelling errors or other mistakes. --UV 22:41, 24 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

¿Cómo puedo ayudar? --Jeneme 13:05, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

If you type in the familiar form you usually get via "quaerere" the article with Latin headline. So from this you do not need redirects. --Alex1011 13:09, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I also usually try 'quaerere' and until now I have been successful with that method. I just wondered whether there is a more comfortable and simple way. (There is not, by any chance, some kind of bot or automatical programme that could redirect to the correct article?) --Partonopier 19:09, 25 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Vowel length

Should I indicate vowel lenght in non-common words, for example, in names of cities (Eblāna, Angĕli, Matrītum...)? --Daniel bg 14:31, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Never in titles. In the text of an article about a particular name I think it can be helpful to do it just once, in the first sentence. There is a danger of misleading people who aren't familiar with Latin (it makes them think that the symbol is part of the proper spelling of the word) but I suppose the benefit outweighs the danger.

Where the word will be found in any Latin dictionary, as with angelus, I don't see any reason to do it. An encyclopedia is really about facts; for full information about words you look in a dictionary -- or in wiktionary. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:58, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

How do people feel about an indication of the Polynesian glottal stop? The question is relevant because common nouns can become proper nouns. Without help from the glottal, would you know how to pronounce a potential personal name like Faaaoaoa? (A native speaker would, of course.) Could you distinguish among Aoao 'Supreme' and Aoao 'Teacher' and Aoao 'Slim'? (The first is Aoao, the second is A'oa'o, and the third is 'Ao'ao.) I'm inclined to leave such marks out, but then we might want to do the same for Polish & Georgian & Mandarin & Vietnamese and so on. You can see how a sign for the glottal stop looks in commentario ‘Uvea. IacobusAmor 16:26, 26 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Circuit

Quomodo Latine dicitur locus certaminis autocinetorum (Anglice et Francogallice circuit) ? Circuitus enim ad designanda birotariorum certamina (e.g. Tour de France, Giro d'Italia) jam utitur et pro aedificio non decebit. ThbdGrrd 09:15, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Autocinetodromus (cf. hippodromus hippodromos)?? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:33, 27 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

portio feminarum

Homines

Haec imago maiorem portionem feminarum praebet. Fortasse hanc ob causam melius quam nostra supra est. --Alex1011 15:39, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Fortasse. Sed cervisiam caret!:)--Rafaelgarcia 11:56, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

De Vicipaedia in Diurno Murivicensi scribitur!

Apologiae facultas lingua Latina debilas.  Conatus sum.

Veni, Vidi, Wiki: Latin isn't Dead on 'Vicipaedia' Janbrogger 07:47, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Optime fecisti, Janbrogger: nexum nobis dedisti! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:41, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Valde gavisus sum! --UV 23:04, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Praemium daturum?

Ite, s.v.p., ad Praemia Vicipaedianis! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:29, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Walther...

Latine Gualterius?--Massimo Macconi 10:53, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Aut Waltharius. Harrissimo.

Aii, praeferamus Gualterium...--Ioscius ^(disp) 15:14, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

R latina: vibrans simplex (flap) vel multiplex (trill) erat?

I would like to know wether the Latin R was a "flap" or a "trill" sound? Maybe it was a flap when written in the simple form, and a trill when doubled (like spanish "caro" and "carro")? --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 18:07, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I think that's correct and I pronounce it that way. Haud 19:26, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

See W.Sidney Allen, Vox Latina (2^nd edition), pp. 32-33. CUP 1978. --Neander 03:00, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

It's usually assumed to be a trill. --Iustinus 03:08, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

So, maybe that would explain it's pronunciation in Spanish, like in "res" [rres] (=stock) or "burro" (=donkey) --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 06:08, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Not being an expert myself and not having Vox Latina available to me, I don't think that the so called flap in spanish is all that different from a brief trill in latin, although I suspect in latin it was a wee bit fuller than the spanish flap. Carus versus carrus--Rafaelgarcia 15:37, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

This question of "flap" and "trill" is still a mistery for me. In spanish they don't use this expression, but vibrante simple and vibrante múltiple. But, if "flap" is the same as a "short trill", then why is it called "flap" and not "short trill"? Moreover, it is also confusing, because new grammatics apply the [ɾ] sign for flap and the simple [r] for the trill, that in case of Spanish is very confusing: this way caro would be [caɾo] and carro would be [caro], while in reality the Spanish rr represents a long trill and not just a trill. More exactly, there are three kinds of trills in Spanish: in caro you pronounce a short trill or flap, in perla you say a (medium) trill, and in perro you pronounce a long trill. --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 19:09, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I think that when you read 'caro' out loud trying to pronounce the letters distinctly, in spanish you will always end up pronouncing the single r as a short trill rather than as a flap. The flap only happens when you say the word quickly so that the toungue just barely taps the top of the mouth. To produce the flap sound, I need to say caro as part of a long sentence so that I don't try to emphasize the r. I.e. "Se lo dije a su cara porque es un buen hombre." The same flap sound occurs in american english, for example, when t or d are said quickly inside a word: e.g. the 't' in 'later' and the 'd' in 'ladder' when these words are pronounced quickly but not when they are pronounced slowly. In sum, I believe the r's in latin are the same as in spanish, as long as you are always careful to pronounce them distinctly avoiding an outright flap. --Rafaelgarcia 07:21, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

IIRC, W. S. Allen says /r/ before the 2nd century a.C.n. was a fricative, which I'd take to mean something like [ř] as in the Czech name Dvořak, or, as amateur native speakers of English might write the sound, <rzh>. So as usual, it depends on which era of Latinity you're cultivating. IacobusAmor 14:59, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for you reply. Gratias vobis ago. --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 18:31, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Constellation(e)s

Ave! I have changed the text in some constellation pages (And, Aql, Cen, Crv, Dra, Lyn, Psc, Sco, Tau). It read (e.g.) "Andromeda constellatio universi est". But, since constellations don't properly exist in themselves, only in the sky as we perceive it, and since the stars in a constellation can be billions of light-years apart, it seems better to say "Andromeda constellatio caeli est". At least to me, that seems more precise. Haud 19:24, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, an apt idea, but where else would a constellation be, if not in the sky? If you accept unneeded Late Latin novelties, plain old Andromeda est constellatio might suffice. Otherwise, fortasse recte: Andromeda est signum caeleste. IacobusAmor 21:38, 30 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Well, you're certainly right as there not being anywhere else constellations can be except the sky; however, writing "signum caeleste" would seem too vague to me, since there are signa, like the Big and the Little Dippers, which aren't constellations. Those have precise definitions and borders. I think it's best just leave the pages as they are for the time being. Haud 03:49, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

For 'constellation', Ainsworth's dictionary gives two possibilities: sidus and signum cœleste [sic]. Late Latin constellatio is a 'starring together'. IacobusAmor 14:48, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Featured articles

My opinion is that the qualitiy of articles on the Latin Wikipedia will rise quickly when there is here also an "Featured articles" page like on English and most other Wikipedias. 84.192.21.206 08:13, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Popemobile

Is there a single word term I could use for this? Papelecinetum, Papaemobilis, Papamobile or something two-worded (and boring) like Autocinetum papale? Harrissimo.

I suggest papaemobile (sc. autocinetum, with genetive. Cf. aquaeductus). --Alex1011 20:32, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Papocinetum? Papautocinetum would of course make more sense, but papocinetum is much funnier. --Iustinus 20:52, 1 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

The former pope didn't like the word popemobile which he considered deprecative. If we are going to continue the joke, papocinetum is a very good candidate, indeed. Somewhere in the text, when characterising the (at least partial) function of the gadget, we could also speak of cathedra autocinetica. But I vote for the lemma papocinetum. --Neander 01:38, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Don't take my word for it (we all know my views on the church) but the word "popemobile" is great.--Ioscius ^(disp) 01:58, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but is popemobile in line with our ... eh, "principles"?   :-)   Forgive my attempt to be sarcastic, but, ni fallor, my proposals have every now and then been met with this magic word. --Neander 02:28, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

In the sense that it is a fairly established word . . . I don't know principles schmrinciples, papautocinetum/papocinetum is wonderful =] --Ioscius ^(disp) 03:38, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Cathedra autocinetica is a wonderful description. We shoudl probably also check vatican literature for a more official latin name. --Iustinus 05:39, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Theodisce or not Theodisce?

An anonymous user changed this name to "Germanica" in the article lingua Theodisca. I thought it best to revert for the moment, but, after looking at Myces' comment (and after following the link to a discussion on wiktionary), we have to consider whether anon. was right. Please look at Disputatio:Lingua Theodisca! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:11, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

A while ago we asked the Germans themselves what they wanted to be called. The response was not exuberant.--Ioscius ^(disp) 13:29, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Germans themselves overall prefer Theodiscus. But I've spoken about that elsewhere. --Iustinus 05:44, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Vicipaedia:Novissima

Hic nexus Vicipaedia:Novissima in pagina prima non iam valet. --Alex1011 10:45, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Corrigi; sed an optime feci nescio! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:53, 2 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Correxisti? ;) IacobusAmor 12:06, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Correxi. Et tu me correxisti. Et sic ad infinitum ...! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:42, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Forma titulorum

Habemusne formam officialem titulorum? Adhuc vidi aut titulos ablativo ("De vita...") aut nominativo ("Vita..."). Utra forma correcta est? --Partonopier 11:54, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Auctores antiqui praepositione "De" usi rem indicaverunt, de qua narrabant ut exempli gratia De Bello Gallico, De Bello Civili (Caesar), De Lingua Latina (Varro), etc. Si de vita alicuius narrabis, convenit, ut titulum cum "De" exordiaris. "De" aut scribitur aut omittitur prout res postulat. Exempli causa videas, quaeso, quomodo Seneca libros suos inscripserit. Quisquis se in profundum titulorum iacere velit, legito hunc librum optimum: Tore JANSON (1964) Latin Prose Prefaces. Studies in Literary Conventions. (Studia Latina Stockholmensia, xiii.) Stockholm, Almqvist & Wiksell. --Neander 23:09, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

In encyclopaediae contextu, de fere semper superflua est. In vicipaediae commentariis, titulum in linea commentarii prima iterum apparendum est forma boldface ut pars sententiae descriptivae. Ergo titulum debet correspondere illae voce quae facile prima sententiae parte accorporari potest. --Rafaelgarcia 00:03, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Cum Rafaele consentio, et addo: bona Latinitas = claritas + brevitas (+ cyathus grammaticae!). Quaero an significatio De vita cuiusdam (in titulo) differt a significatione Vita cuiusdam? Respondeo: non. Igitur verbum de omitto. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:38, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Siquidem de partibus commentationis loquimur, neque de libris et litteris. --Iustinus 08:28, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Auxilium peto...

...apud paginam disputationis Medii Aevi Hispanici, de nominibus Arabicis in Latine. Gratias ago!--Xaverius 21:43, 3 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Si non potes nomen attestatum invenire, credo bene sit nomine hispano uti (praesertim si addis {{Fontes desiderati}}).--Rafaelgarcia 02:36, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

The battle of X

If I want to say the "The battle of X" in Latin is it better to use a locative (Callipoli), a genitive (Callipolis) or an adjectival form (Callipolitanus)? Harrissimo.

I have been using "Proelium apud + acc", so maybe, Proelium apud Callipolin?--Xaverius 19:17, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Pugna Callipolitana, Proelium Callipolitanum is ok. Also apud Callipolin is ok, but because Latin doesn't favour adverbial attributes (in nouns), Pugna apud Callipolin facta / commissa seems stylistically preferable to Pugna apud Callipolin. But I believe all of these models of use are attested in Cicero. --Neander 22:41, 4 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I know this wasn't the main question, but I think for anything like a "proper" battle it would be better to adopt proelium (rather than pugna) as our usual word -- because it means precisely that and nothing else. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:56, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

But also "pugna navalis", naval battle, Cornelius Nepos. --Alex1011 10:47, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thanks Alex, I forgot that one. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:29, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Et videte proelium! --Alex1011 14:09, 10 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Traductor

Necesito algún volutario traductor inverso, de castellano a latín, para hacer tres o cuatro páginas de un cuento medieval que estoy escribiendo. Necesitaría darle verosimilitud, por lo que sería perfecto alguien ducho en latín medieval (siglos IX al XIII aproximadamente). Como premio le enviaría un ejemplar ilustrado a mano del cuento completo.

Más información en:

• Gestas y Fazañas del Valiente y Nunca Bien Ponderado Caballero Frikipedio, paladín de la Justicia y el Honor, y Otrosí de las Cuitas y Placeres que le Causaron sus Arriesgados Amoríos con la Simpar Inciclopea

y en

• Inciclopedia/Frikipedio

--83.41.49.39 12:04, 5 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

¿Seguro que no preferirías en vez de latín Castellano antiguo, como el del poema del Cid?--Xaverius 08:54, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

--No, tendría que ser latín medieval, se supone que era un texto que circulaba por los monasterios, mantenido en secreto por los copistas. Este texto se supone originario del siglo XI, narra hechos del siglo IX y su redacción final es del siglo XIII. Latín pero no latín clásico. En cualquier caso las mezclas tendrían que ser gallegas y no castellanas, pues se redacta en Pontevedra.----Anxova 07:27, 8 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Categoria:Indices incolarum

I'd better explain why I created this category. In most cases our articles on places include a heading such as "Incolae noti", and that makes good sense. In the case of the very largest world cities, with the longest histories, there will be (I think) too many people to go in such a list. So, for those great cities, it seemed to me useful to start building up separate pages listing famous inhabitants. There happen to be five so far (see the category above); I imagine there could be a few dozen eventually. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 11 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotecta on American Presidents

I placed the semiprotecta formula on the last few presidents' pages since there have been several incidents over the past few days of gross vandalism by anonymous users on the Georgius Bush page and the Richardus Cheny page. I suspect this is an effect of the elections in the US next year, perhaps due to political campaign volunteers that feel the urge to adverise their potical catch phrases and child-like rants here, without contributing to the encyclopedia articles in any useful way. I suppose it is an inevitable fact of human nature.--Rafaelgarcia 20:28, 11 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I have actually gone ahead with the protection. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rafael.--Ioscius ^(disp) 23:05, 11 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

De inscriptione "Duenos"

"Duenos med feced en manom einom duenoi, ne med malos tatod."

This is one of the first Latin inscriptions found in Roma from the 6th century b.C. Do you have any idea what the part en manom einom duenoi means? I think perhaps it is in mano uno bono, "in the hand for a good [person]" or "for the hand of a good [person]". Any other idea? --Mexicanus ^(scribe!) 19:25, 12 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

See Inscriptio Duenos and the links that you can find there and in the other language versions. --UV 00:52, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Statistics

There have been new statistics a couple of days ago: [7]--Xaverius 09:31, 13 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Summa stipularum forma

Since we want stubs to grow into articles, we should ease the process by organizing them in a way that will foster their expansion. I propose that, in the first paragraph, information about dates & places of birth & death be compressed to "(year–year)" and fuller data be set up in a section on "Vita" (which of course will expand as authors add material). For example, except for nexus externi, here was the entire article on Copernicus as I found it:

Nicolaus Copernicus (Polonice: Mikołaj Kopernik; Theodisce: Nikolaus Kopernikus) 19 Februarii 1473 oppido Toruno natus et 24 Maii 1543 castro Dominae nostrae (Frombork) occisus est. Mathematicus et astronomus polonus, conditor theoriae heliocentricae est (liber "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium").

And here's what I've done to it:

Nicolaus Copernicus (Polonice: Mikołaj Kopernik; Theodisce: Nikolaus Kopernikus) (1473–1543) fuit mathematicus et astronomus Polonus et conditor theoriae heliocentricae, promulgatae in libro De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (1543).

Vita

Copernicus natus est in oppido Toruno die 19 Februarii 1473. Obiit in Castris Dominae Nostrae (Frombork, Frauenburg) die 24 Maii 1543.

Amici, consentitis? IacobusAmor 13:07, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Consentio! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:14, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Latinitas

I realised that the marking of Latinity, which we revised recently, isn't properly explained anywhere. I have now made a page Vicipaedia:Gradus Latinitatis and revised the links on the Pagina Prima. Please tell me if anything doesn't make sense.

Just to summarize, the idea is this. Whenever you make a new page that is longer than a stub, please add a Latinity marking at the top. However good you are, don't add {{L1}} (which gives you a green dot): leave it for your first reader to do that. Please add {{L}} (which gives you a golden dot). Or, if you are sure that your Latin is not very good, add a lower level such as {{Latinitas|-2}}. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:56, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

arena, non harena est

Semper vidi "arena" sine "h" scriptum, unde "arenarium" et non "harenarium" Si aliquis potet rectificare primam paginam, excellens erit.

Si semper vidisti "arenam", non satis petiisti. Si in OLD petes arena, ~ae, f., vides "See harena". Et exemplorum gratia:

Suetonius, Augusti de vita 43: Quodam autem muneris die Parthorum obsides tunc primum missos per mediam harenam ad spectaculum induxit superque se subsellio secundo collocavit.

Lucretius, 6.700: est quoque uti possit magnus congestus harenae

Livius, 22:16:4: Poenus inter Formiana saxa ac Literni harenas stagnaque et per horridas siluas hibernaturus esset

Sunt alii loci, etiam, promitto. --Ioscius ^(disp) 16:15, 14 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

"CHOMMODA dicebat, si quando commoda uellet dicere, et insidias Arrius hinsidias, et tum mirifice sperabat se esse locutum, cum quantum poterat dixerat hinsidias. credo, sic mater, sic liber auunculus eius. sic maternus auus dixerat atque auia. hoc misso in Syriam requierant omnibus aures audibant eadem haec leniter et leuiter, nec sibi postilla metuebant talia uerba, cum subito affertur nuntius horribilis, Ionios fluctus, postquam illuc Arrius isset, iam non Ionios esse sed Hionios." -Catullus

"H" verbis incipens cum "A" in locutione vulgare additus est, sed neque rectum est neque scriptus.

Duae formae sunt rectae, sed Perseus dixit harenam esse formam meliorem. Vide Perseus Word Lookup harena ( Etiam, de verbis tuis supra, credo correctum esse dicere ...in verbis quae cum "A" incipiunt quam tantum ...verbis incipens cum "A")--Rafaelgarcia 02:38, 15 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Bene Catullum novi. Immotus autem sum aerumnae gravitate...--Ioscius ^(disp) 02:58, 15 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Studio

One word that has been causing a lot of trouble is the English studio, used in the sense of a film studio. At some point a Latin word was invented, studius, -i (or something like that) that doesn't exist. (vide De Nemine Inveniendo atque Disputatio:Walt Disney Societas#Unde studius, -i, m.?) I propose something like cinematographicus grex or perhaps cinegrex for short to mean "a film production company or film studio". Would grex be a good word choice here? -- Secundus Zephyrus 15:47, 15 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

David Morgan: movie studio = technyphion cinematographicum. Harrissimo.

What does technyphion mean exactly? -- Secundus Zephyrus 19:23, 15 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Pagina prima: Scin tu ... ?

In Pagina prima sub titulo "Scin tu ... ?" scriptum est: '...iam aevo Antiquo Democritum Atomos invenire et a Isidoro depictae esse?' Altera pars huius sententiae primam non sequitur: caret subiecto. Praeterea hic accusativus cum infinitivo adhibendus est sicut in prima parte. Postremo ante 'Isidoro' non 'a' sed 'ab' scribi oportet. Scribendum igitur mihi quidem videtur 'et eas ab Isidoro depictas esse' vel potius 'quas ab Isidoro depictas esse'. Ceterum credo Isidorum atomos descripsisse non depinxisse. --Fabullus 08:09, 16 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Sub eodem titulo quoque inscriptum inveni 'magis novi'. Nonne scribendum est 'plus novi'? --Fabullus 08:09, 16 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Fabulle, gratias ago ob hanc rem, nunc textum mutabo. Fortasse nescis me curatorem partis Scin tu... ? paginae primae esse, sed omes textum sectionis mutare possumus si putas eum male scriptum esse.--Xaverius 15:10, 16 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Vide Disputatio Formulae:Scintu#Atomos--Rafaelgarcia 16:56, 16 Octobris 2007 (UTC)