Disputatio:Res publica Bohemica

E Vicipaedia

Vicipaedia 2 paginas de terra illa habet: Tzekia et Res Publica Cecha? Quale nomen adoptare debemus? Possibile, nomen potium est Cechia sive Czechia? --Alexander Gerascenco 15:55, 2 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Tzekia appears to be based off of Egger's Tzechoslovakia, Cecha is coined with the Italian-style "Church" pronunciation in mind. I really dislike Egger's overuse of Tz and k, but his book has such authority among Neo-Latinists that I would recomend we go with Tzechia. --Iustinus 19:51, 2 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Won't it be useful to make a clear distinction between the two digraphs: "cz" and "tz", so that one of them would always stand for the sound denoted by "c" (before "e", "i", "y") - in Italian, "cz" - in Polish, "ch" in English, "tsch" - in German and the other for the sound denoted by "ts" - in English, "z" - in German, "c" - in Polish and, before "e", "i", "y", in the traditional variant of Latin pronunciation I was taught at the university. Should we write "Tzar" and "Czechia" (as I would prefer) or "Czar" and "Tzechia"? -- Alexander Gerascenco 16:46, 2 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)

Czechia mihi melius sonat. Cuchar 21:21, 3 Martii 2006 (UTC)

Mihi etiam! -- Alexander Gerascenco 07:07, 4 Martii 2006 (UTC)

"Cz" appears nowhere in the Latin-Czech dictionary (as well as "tz" or "k"). There is no reason for writing "z" after "c", because "e" follows. I think that the best forms are "Cechia" and "Res publica Cecha". Write more opinions so we could correct everything. Petr C. 08:25, 4 Martii 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, "c" before "i", "e", "y" is read according to Italian rules, i.e. like English "ch", only according to the Church pronunciation, which is not followed by everyone. Personally I was taught to read "c" as "ts" in such positions, and the reconstructed classical pronunciation prescribes reading "c" always as "k". So, "Cechia" could be read as "Tsekhia" or even "Kekia"...

"Cz" and "tz" can be used in Latin transliterations of foreign words (esp. proper names) (see, e.g., Graesse. Orbis Latinus, Hofmann. Lexicon Universale, Herberstein. Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii, etc.). The problem is their interchangeability (that I'd love to put an end to)...

The Russian-Latin dictionary that I have offers such variant of the country name as "Tsec(h)ia"... -- Alexander Gerascenco 05:04, 5 Martii 2006 (UTC)

That's the problem of latin in the modern world - each nation uses its own pronounciation rules. I am taught that "c" before "i", "e", "y", "ae", "oe" is pronounced as "tz" (rules used in the Czech Republic - medieval latin). Example - "Cicero":

• Medieval latin [tzitzero] - in Slavic languages c, ц
• Germany [kikero]
• Italy [tchitchero] - in Slavic languages cz, č, ч
• France [sisero]
• United kingdom [siserou]

In this angle of view it's really hard to say which form describing the Czech land is correct. Latin came to Bohemia in medieval ages, but "Tzekia" appeared for the first time in history at the beginning of the 20-th century as a part of "Tzekoslovakia" (latin had already been "dead" language). That's why the medieval latin seems to be the best for me. I understand, that "big" nations would like to use their form of latin everywhere, but Tzekia is already being used in many other Vicipaedia articles, so this form seems to be a good compromise. Petr C. 10:26, 5 Martii 2006 (UTC)

"Tzekia", never "Tzechia"? -- Alexander Gerascenco 12:44, 5 Martii 2006 (UTC)

Considering the poor quality of much of the Latin here, I would not think referring to widespread use of a word here to be any kind of argument for its use. Errors go unchecked and tend to multiply... —Myces Tiberinus 03:08, 31 Martii 2006 (UTC)

Quin Bohemia? Bohemia enim non est diffilicis scriptu. Scio quidem hanc regionem non eosdem terminos habuisse ac Tsecia hodierna, sed tamen paene eandem regionem significat. Et - exempli gratia - etiam nomine Italiae utimur quamvis Italia hodierna maior sit quam Italia Romanorum temporis. usor:Bohmhammel 20.31 (UTC) pridie Nonas Martias 2006

Ego quoque Bohemia malo. Also, when it comes to spelling sounds that can't be unproblematically spelled in Latin (such as the 'ch') I would be inclined to use the original/native orthography if possible (thus, from Česko, either Cech- or perhaps Čech-—or do the Czechs have a standard method of reducing diacriticked letters to plain ones?). That said, Hofmann does write Czechus at least once. "-kia" doesn't seem to be supported at all. —Myces Tiberinus 03:08, 31 Martii 2006 (UTC)

I should append that the usual treatment I have run aross is that the sounds are spelled according to the underlying native language of the Latinist (so as an English-speaker I might prefer 'Czechia', the English form)—but in a place like this that's somewhat infeasible. —Myces Tiberinus 13:43, 31 Martii 2006 (UTC)

Index 1 Res Publica Bohemica etc. etc. etc. 2 Adhuc Tzekia - mox Res Publica Bohemica 3 Bohemomoravia 4 Czechia, please

[recensere] Res Publica Bohemica etc. etc. etc.

Georgius omnibus, qui hanc disputationem participant, salutem. Hodie denique quaestionem de nomine Rei Publicae Bohemicae (sive Tzekae, ut nonnulli dicunt) ad viros feminasque doctos, qui studiis in universitatibus studiorum Bohemicis (sive, sit venia verbo, Tzekicis) operam dant, cursu electronico detuli; equidem nullus dubito, quin duas paginas de eadem re publica habere supervacaneum sit; itaque exspectemus paulisper. --Georgius Laminarius 07:47, 17 Maii 2006 (UTC)

In Vicipaedia Latina iam sunt paginae lingua Bohemica et Bohemoslovacia. Possibile, haec pagina etiam renominanda est "Bohemia" (et pagina, nunc Bohemia nominatur, facienda est "Bohemia (terra)")?

P.S. Václav Klaus -> Venceslaus Klaus (fons: Percontatio Venceslai Klaus, praesidentis Bohemiae [1])

-- Alexander Gerascenco 06:14, 29 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Sodalis optime, gratias tibi pro interrogatione tua ago; nunc equidem nomen Rei Publicae Bohemicae mihi perplacet (quin etiam in usu diutissime est); nondum autem unum nomen, quo patria mea appelletur, proponere velim, quamvis opinionem meam habeam. Primum res in sessionibus nostris universitariis et in scholis Circuli Latini Prageni tractanda et penitus perscrutanda erit. Deinde omnia, si necesse erit, mutanda nobis erunt. Sed, quod ad vocem Tzekiae exit, parum Latina esse mihi videtur. --Georgius Laminarius 13:11, 4 Septembris 2006 (UTC)

[recensere] Adhuc Tzekia - mox Res Publica Bohemica

Nonnullos Universitatis Carolinae Pragensis professores adii, ut sententiam suam de nomine rei publicae, quae ex Bohemia, Moravia, parte Silesiae constat, aperirent; opusculum de hac re proculdubio exarandum nimis longum temporis spatium postulat et bene compertum est lexica Latina (index eorum apud lingua Bohemica operaque in Academia scientiarum Bohemica edita nomen Rei Publicae Bohemicae continere. Intra ergo quattuordecim dies, sodales egregii, huic paginae nomen Rei Publicae Bohemicae impositurus sum. Unum autem nomen terrarum Bohemicarum variis ex causis perdifficile inveniri potest - nondum enim consensus inter incolas Bohemiae, Moraviae, Silesiae exstat. --Georgius Laminarius 16:41, 12 Octobris 2006 (UTC)

[recensere] Bohemomoravia

Sorry, but to call Czechia by a name derived from Bohemia is the same nonsense as to say Brandenburgum instead of Germania. You can't call the whole country by a part of it. Czechia consists not only of Bohemia, but also of Moravia. So what about Bohemomoravia? --212.158.134.242 17:26, 2 Septembris 2007 (UTC) Gabriel Svoboda

The current article title is really terrible. You call Tzilia by its Neolatin name, not by a name of one of its regions. You even accept Tzadia although this country does have a classical Latin name (Garamantia). But my homeland must has to be called wrongly (just as Anglia would be an incorrect name for Regnum Unitum, or Russia for Unio Sovietica) only because somebody doesn't lïke its Neolatin name: Tzekia. (Well, at the best I'd prefer Tzechia instead of Tzekia, unless you want to write also psykologia, kamaeleo etc.) But Bohemia or any of its derivatives is definitely wrong because it doesn't cover the whole country. --Gabriel Svoboda 14:52, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

If you're proposing to move to Tzechia or Tzekia, Gabriel, I agree with you. (Bohemomoravia is also OK, I guess, but clumsy.) But let's wait and see what one or two others think. Andrew Dalby 16:58, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

If Tzadia was to be called Garamantia (which is by no means really modern Chad) then all this would be pointless, for the Classical name for Bohemia is Boiohaemum--Xaverius 17:10, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

If the /tʃ/ of chocolate is to be transcribed as Latin "s" (as apparently it is), why isn't the /tʃ/ of Czechia also to be transcribed as "s," making the country Sechia? (Not to mention Sile for Tzile and Sadia for Tzadia.) Here's a general principle: proposed transcriptional irregularities must be defensible on grounds of prior usage; and if they can't be, then transcriptions should be created on the basis of previously established phonetic regularities. IacobusAmor 20:40, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat off the topic of Czechs, but Nuntii Latini latinised Chechnya as "Tzetznia"! On the topic, they also follow suit later with Tzekia itself. Both of these stories were written by Pekkanen. Harrissimo 22:28, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

Maybe we should actually see all the options? I presume we're keeping Respublica at the beginning, so here are some adjectives:

• Bohemica (most common across the board, used by Helfer, Ducrue and a Czech themself as sources)
• Tzecha (Egger and Pekkanen, looks bad, not a good transcription, not classical)
• Cecha (Also Egger, not classical, but like Cechia - very similar to the Czech name and )
• Tzek(ic)a (Pekkanen)
• Ceca (From Levine's Cecoslovachia)
• Bohemomoravia (ficta, but look at this (quite interesting) )

But which is both P.C. and well-made? Harrissimo 22:28, 30 Decembris 2007 (UTC).

Forms that spell /tʃe/ as "ce" are unacceptable to those who pronounce Latin in the reconstructed classical manner, for whom Cecha must be pronounced /kekha/. Forms that use /z/ as if it were merely /s/ are likewise nonclassical, since "z" is classically a long consonant, consisting of /d/ + /z/, so Tzecha might become almost a trisyllable: tdz-e-cha. The spelling that may dissatisfy the least is "ts," and it may lead to Tsechia. IacobusAmor 00:09, 31 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

The /dz/ is part of the Italian style, I think. Allen's Vox Latina, citing Velius Longus, firmly places the classical Latin value of z at /zz/—still a double consonant, but just a long one, not an affricate of any kind; and, of course, in classical Greek times the zeta was /zd/. The origin of this practice of using tz for /tʃ/ could certainly use some looking into, though; presumably it has some basis backing its relative popularity, which should probably be discovered before some unknown baby is thrown out with the bathwater. —Mucius Tever 03:19, 31 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and Allen remarks (boldface added): "Before the adoption of the foreign sound and letter, the Greek ζ had been rendered by its nearest Latin equivalent, viz. by the voiceless s initially and ss medially" (p. 46). ¶ Regarding why European observers used "tz" to transcribe a certain sound in American Indian words (see Vitzliputzli): perhaps those writers heard no difference between "s" and "z" and therefore conceived "ts" and "tz" to be the same sound. Maybe "tz" looked more familiar to them than "ts" would have. IacobusAmor 04:45, 31 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

BTW, there is no need to keep Res publica at the beginning, Latin names of most other republics in the world do fine without it.

Some aspects of the problem are described [2]. As you can read there among others, Bohemia or Res publica Bohemica is definitely wrong; but as far as all other alternatives are concerned, none of them is probably clearly better than all others.

* No alternative offers the original initial sound of the name as Latin just doesn't have it. So, Cechia (from Italian pronunciation) is not more wrong than Tzekia (tz in this function dates back to the 6th century AD [3]), Tsechia (from modern Greek Τσεχία), Czechia (from old Czech, current Polish and from these two also English spelling) or even Sechia.

* For the second consonant sound, ch (_echia) is both traditional and reflects the original pronunciation best - but if Neolatin dislikes it, k or c (_ekia, _ecia) would not be an essential mistake either. --Gabriel Svoboda 09:30, 31 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

[recensere] Czechia, please

"Tzekia" sounds like tzatziki and looks really odd. Czech Humanists writing in Latin sometimes did use "Czechia" or "regnum Czechicum" (when speaking about all lands of Czech kingdom - which could be fitting also for today's situation (Moravia and piece of Silesia), so it is not a new word, as suggested. Concerning "res publica" I would prefer "Res publica Bohemorum".

How to represent in Latin the sound of IPA [tʃ] is a current topic of discussion on my talkpage. Of course if attestations exist, Vicipaedia should recognize them—though IMHO that doesn't mean that Vicipedia should necessarily give them preference in listing the order of alternatives in a lemma. In classical pronunciation, cz comes out as [kzz]] (z is long), a strange sound. IacobusAmor 16:47, 19 Maii 2008 (UTC)