Vicipaedia:Taberna

Haec est Taberna nostra. Iam sunt nobis 90 660 paginae. Hodie dies Lunae 20 Maii 2013.

Quaestio nova
Ut sententias antiquiores legas vide Categoria:Tabernae acta priora
Quid est Taberna?

Hic colloqui possumus.

90,000

Hodie paginam numero 90,000, titulo "Buxa", creavit Helveticus noster. Gaudeamus igitur! Andrew Dalby 11:19, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Id quod de categoriis locorum facio ...

Debeo explicare. Quaereo an possibile (et utile) sit categorias creare quae locos tantum orbis terrarum, neque alias res ullas, contineant: utile fortasse si postea capsas facere et automatice recensere volumus, et fortasse si coordinata geographica addere volumus. Interdum possumus categorias, quas iam habemus, in novum arborem addere; interdum necesse erit locos (e.g. urbes) in categorias supplementarias ad hanc rem creatas addere. Experimentum facio: vide supercategoriam Categoria:Loci terrestres et subcategorias. Si alii volunt ibi inserere subcategorias, quae locos tantum, nequa alias res ullas contineant, fac! Si alii mihi dicere volunt hanc rem aut inutile aut impossibile esse, dic! Si nomina novarum categoriarum male constituuntur, facile mutari possunt.

I ought to explain. I want to know if it's possible and useful to create categories that contain only geographical places and nothing else. Useful perhaps for adding and then maintaining infoboxes, also perhaps for adding geographical coordinates. Sometimes existing categories can be used as part of this new tree; sometimes places (e.g. towns, countries) would have to be put in additional categories created for the purpose. I'm just testing: see the supercategory Categoria:Loci terrestres and its subcategories. If anyone else wants to add, into this structure, categories that contain only places and nothing else, do it! If others think this will be useless or impossible, tell me! If the names of the new categories are badly chosen, they can easily be altered. Andrew Dalby 12:05, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

For many of them, would the single word situs ('sites') be apter? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:43, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

The idea is that all of them are points in space that can be identified with geographical co-ordinates (countries are admittedly a bit bigger than points, but their geographical centre is thus identified). As a general/mathematical term, I thought "loci" suggested all this better. But I'm open to persuasion! Andrew Dalby 13:10, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Ah, so the articles might ideally want to include the latitude & longitude, maybe in a special place or capsa? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:33, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yes, that's it exactly! One purpose I have in mind is that when they are all findable in this way, coordinates (from Wikidata perhaps) can be inserted in all of them automatically. Andrew Dalby 14:02, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! A good idea for interconnecting the texts! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:08, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Having made a little experiment, I think that a complete, pure category tree of articles about places won't be needed, because all these places will in any case in the very near future be identified as "Loci" at Wikidata. Many are thus identified already. So the adding of coordinates (for example) can be done, when we want, by a bot drawing on Wikidata. If others who know about bots agree or disagree with me on this, please say!

I think none the less that a modest bit of systematization among categories for inhabited places, will do no harm to editors and readers who want to find them easily. The basic step I think I'll take, adopting a form of words invented by Utilo, is to create (as soon as needed) catch-all supercategories for all inhabited places (cities down to hamlets) in each civitas, like the current Categoria:Loci inhabitati Graeciae. This becomes more necessary as we get more pages for smaller places, which are not always the centres of local administration. So Utilo needed a category for places in Greece that were not, or had ceased to be, "demes"; in the same way, we will need to deal with 10,000 or more small places in France that have been categorized as "communes" by Helveticus, but will soon not be communes any more, just small places. Imagine if Italy reorganizes in the same way! If anyone disagrees on this general line of thought, please say. Andrew Dalby 08:32, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Experimento parvo absoluto, arborem categoriarum plenum, qui paginas omnes de locis contineat neque aliam rem ullam, haud nobis necesse censeo, quia collegae nostri apud Wikidata eandem rem iam faciunt. Mox coordinata geographica in omnes tales paginas (si volumus) robotum inserere potebit, indice paginarum apud Wikidata facto. Si quis roboti magister me errare dicere vult, dic!

Credo nihilominus, si categorias de locis inhabitatis leviter recenseo, utile editoribus atque lectoribus erit ad tales paginas reperiendas. Sicut Utilo iam de Graecia fecit (vide Categoria:Loci inhabitati Graeciae), addere volo graduatim, sub omnibus "civitatibus sui iuris" quando necesse erit, supercategoriam locorum inhabitatorum tam magnorum quam minimorum. Hoc oportet facere praesertim quia plures pluresque paginas habemus de vicis parvis, neque municipiis, neque demis, neque communibus. Sicut in Graecia, mox in Francia paginae permultae de communibus (10,000? 15,000?) quas Helveticus creavit, non iam communia descripturae sunt sed vicos. An talis res de "municipiis" et "fractionibus" Italiae incidere debet? (Usque adhuc nescio!) Rursus dico: si quis me errare censet, dic! Andrew Dalby 11:43, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Just a small point about the pattern: Loci inhabitati is intelligible, but one wonders whether Loci inculti would be more idiomatic. For inhabit, Cassell's contrasts "(locum) incolere (usually of a community)" with "(in loco) habitare (usually of an individual)." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:57, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you said that. I don't feel at all certain and it would be easy to change at this stage. What would others think to be the neatest possible expression for "inhabited places/communities"? Andrew Dalby 12:31, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

If Google is still our friend, loci inculti seems to be good modern Italian as well as Latin. Latin attestations do occur, e.g. ex 1666, 1722, et 1898. However, inhabitare may not work exactly the way habitare (discussed in reference to Cassell's above) works, so let's hear what others say. Of course you could go on using loci inhabitati and trust the bots to make everything consistent later on. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Google may be our deceiver here: according to my Italian dictionary inculti means "uncultivated", so the opposite of what we want! [PS: I think that may be case with your first two Latin citations also -- I can't access the third.] Likewise, in French, inculte means "uncultured" and inhabité means "uninhabited". Better focus, I suppose, on what gives the required meaning in Latin ...

I've been checking too. I have not found the past participle passive of "incolere" used in this way, though I guess there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I am wondering whether "Loci habitati" (without the in) would be better. Andrew Dalby 12:57, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

By golly, that's right! Does Latin really switch from the preposition in in most of the paradigm to the negating prefix in- in the past participle? In which case the confusion is easily explained, as it wouldn't be unlike popular (mis)perceptions of English inflammable, in common use (despite what dictionaries say) meaning both 'able to burn' and 'unable to burn'. So it may be best to stick with loci (in)habitati and wait for clarification. ¶ What of loci constituti? Even if a few people are living in a place, it may not be a named or otherwise formally established place, and the category is presumably looking for places only after they've been constituted as such. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:29, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It's a neat idea, but I'm hesitant over "Loci constituti" because I feel we need something broad enough to cover inhabited places at all levels of formality, even to a total absence of formality. Andrew Dalby 14:00, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Lateiner gefragt

Salvete!

In Vorbereitung dieses Treffens in Braunschweig (lat.: Brunsvicum) benötige ich die lateinische Übersetzung für:

• Wikipedia-Stammtisch Braunschweig
• Stammtisch Braunschweig
• Wikipedianertreffen in Braunschweig
• Wikipedia-Treffen in Braunschweig

Danke im Voraus! Brunswyk

Propono:

• Circulus Vicipaedianorum Brunsvicensis
• Circulus Brunsvicensis
• Conventus Vicipaedianorum Brunsvici habitus
• Conventus Vicipaedianus Brunsvici habitus --Utilo (disputatio) 11:07, 10 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Tenzin Gyatso/Dalai Lama

Salve. De praesente Dalai Lama, nomen Tenzin Gyatso est eius nomen religiosum et Dalai Lama est titulum appellatur, dum natus est Lhamo Dondrub. Tum sitne in commentatione "DEFAULTSORT:Gyatso, Tenzin"? Donatello (disputatio) 17:51, 9 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Ita, utile est hanc formulam mittere, et recte sub "G" littera invenitur, ut mihi videtur (ut apud alias Vicipaedias faciunt editores). A. Mahoney (disputatio) 18:25, 9 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Video. Gratias ago. :) -- Donatello (disputatio) 12:15, 10 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Pagina mensis

Why is the Pagina prima printing an obsolete version of the pagina mensis? You can instantly spot the problem by noting that the link to mare mediterraneum in the version on the Pagina prima is red. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

As a rule, we probably shouldn't be featuring pages whose first few paragraphs—the part to be printed in the Pagina prima—contain red links. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

If you've made a significant edit to the first few sentences of the page which is pagina mensis, you'll need to make the same edit to Formula:PaginaMensis/Maii 2013 (or whatever the month is!) Don't know if this answers the question ...

There's another solution, as you realise, to the specific problem you mention. Click on the redlink and make a redirect :)

As to your point no. 2: don't let's overdo it, I agree, but why no redlinks? Don't redlinks encourage people to add pages? Andrew Dalby 17:00, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

De categoriis contrarie divisis

Qui Anglice possunt, fortasse legere volunt hanc commentationem in Signpost "Categorisation of women novelists sparks media debate on Wikipedia's sexism". Vicipaediani Anglophoni multas categorias contrarie divisas (crossover categories) creaverunt, sexu et gente (necnon aliis criteriis) digestas, e.g. "American Women Novelists", "LGBT writers from the United States", "African-American dentists", "American scientists of Ukrainian descent‎‎". Nos Latine paucas categorias tales habemus: id mihi bene videtur. Fortasse eas quas habemus sexu subdivisas ("Actrices, Ostentatrices, Poetriae" etc., vide sub Categoria:Mulieres) oportet dissipare? Andrew Dalby 14:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I have repeatedly argued against creating new crossover categories, and I am happy that we do not have too many of them here on Vicipaedia. Other wikipedias have even fewer of them: The German wikipedia, for example, does not cross people's nationality and people's profession: On de.wikipedia, there is no category "Writers from the U.S.", just a category "Writers" and a category "People from the U.S." If one wants to find out the writers from the U.S., Vicipaedia:CatScan can be used for that purpose.

That said, I would advocate dissipating most of the subcategories of Categoria:Mulieres (perhaps leaving Categoria:Meretrices?) and I would be happy to let UVbot perform the task, if there is consensus. --UV (disputatio) 15:25, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Uh, I can't agree, sorry. It is easy for me to find things using categories and be organized. If a category has more than say 15 members, I would like to subcategorize them. For example, I will soon categorize persons in the Lord of the Rings novels. --Jondel (disputatio) 19:49, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

When this subcategorization adds new information that is not already present via other categories, please go ahead! (I suspect that this is the case with the persons in the Lord of the Rings novels.)

But when this subcategorization only creates a crossover of information that can be expressed all the same without creating new crossover categories, please refrain from creating categories such as a category for „Swedish classical harpsichordists specialized in the works of Georg Philipp Telemann“, and a category for „Swedish female homosexual experts-in-early-19th-century-Southern-Serbian-calligraphy whose last name comprises an odd number of characters“ (I suspect you would not create such a category anyway, but this would be an example of a crossover category).

But perhaps we should distinguish general questions of categorization from the particular question raised here by Andrew following the points that were raised concerning en.wikipedia: whether to keep the few subcategories of Categoria:Mulieres that we currently have or whether to dissolve them. --UV (disputatio) 20:26, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, I see no difficulty at all with Jondel's plan. Go ahead, Jondel! Andrew Dalby 20:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Great. I think I get UV's point not to overcategorize. You, Andrew (seemed to ) make a suggestion when I was new here, that it would be good if a category had 3 or more members and it seems to be good guideline. gotta go now.--Jondel (disputatio) 22:02, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It's good to have a minimum 3/4 as a general aim, I'd say, even if we often don't attain our aim ... Andrew Dalby 18:54, 14 Maii 2013 (UTC)

De nomine adiectivo "lunaris"

Salve. Demiro nomen adiectivum "lunaris, -is, -e" si id est in lingua Latina classica. Lexicon meum Lexicon Norstedianum, Latine-Suetice (editio prima recentissimaque), non dicit si antique, mediaevaliter, nec hodierne est. Si studiosi estis, id dicit:

luna|ris, ris, -re adjective of the moon, moon-; luna|tus adjective halfmoonshaped; luno verb to bend in a moonshape

Donatello (disputatio) 16:13, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC).

A tempore classico in usu est: Cicero, Ovidius, Seneca, Vitruvius.--Utilo (disputatio) 18:59, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Gratias tibi Utilo. -- Donatello (disputatio) 19:13, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC).

De categoria ad cuiusdam praefecturae Francicae urbes pertinente quae improprie nominata est

Pagina de Franciae praefectura cuius Augustonemetum est caput primum Podium Tholi nominata est, quod haud idoneum est quoniam illic Dôme ad deum celticum, neque ad ulla architectonica elementa confert. Itaque cunctas paginas ad hanc praefecturam pertinentes movi. Categoria tamen quae praefecturae urbes enumerat similiter movenda est, sed quomodo fieri potest nusquam repperi. Igitur auxilium consiliumque vobis omnibus peto. ThbdGrrd (disputatio) 21:06, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Categoria:Communia praefecturae Podii Tholi → Categoria:Communia praefecturae Podii Dumiatis, an recte?

Usor:UVbot hanc rectificationem perficere potest. Vide etiam Vicipaedia:Automata/Category move requests. --UV (disputatio) 21:56, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

hardware -> ferramenta, software -> ???

So, I believe that the best translation for "hardware" is "ferramenta", would anyone agree?

What would be the best translation for software? The word software was originally created as a direct antonym to hardware, in that hardware is hard to change because it uses hard parts (printed circuits, metal chips, soldered wires etc) whereas software is easy to change because it uses soft parts (electric and magnetic fields).

Etymology:

(1) http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=software software (n.) Look up software at Dictionary.com

   1851, soft wares, "woolen or cotton fabrics," also, "relatively perishable consumer goods,"
   from soft + ware (n.). The computer sense is a separate coinage from 1960, based on hardware.

(2) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/software

   From soft +‎ -ware, by contrast with hardware (“the computer itself”). Coined 1953 by
   Paul Niquette;[1] first used in print by John Tukey 1958.

My suggestions for the word "software" in latin, as a direct antonym to ferramenta given the etymology above, sorted by my personal preference:

1. "promutamenta": something devised for changing or to be easy to change
2. "telamenta": something made of soft fabrics, cloth, tissue, web (its sound contrasts very nicely with ferramenta)
3. "pannumenta": something made of fabrics (or maybe lanamenta -- wool, or byssumenta -- cotton)
4. "effigiamenta": something easy to copy/make (or maybe imitamenta)

Any opinions are highly appreciated! I've never seen anyone devoting any serious thoughts on this topic.

Vide commentarios Programmatura computatralis et Disputatio:Programmatura computatralis. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:54, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Salve Iacobe. Sentio tecum. Bonum est vocabulum. -- Donatello (disputatio) 13:58, 17 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Device

Greetings. The English word for technological stuff: "device"; what is "device" in Latin? Could it be apparatus, or machina, or both? In my language Swedish it's called apparat. Donatello (disputatio) 12:38, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Morgan: ".mech device (gadget) inventum; machina (Lev.)." ¶ The English word, meaning 'anything that has been devised', is extremely general in sense, so res might well suffice in some contexts, but White's dictionary, for the sense 'a contrivance', gives inventum, while Cassell's echoes Levine (or rather Levine echoes Cassell's) with machina, but adds dolus. (A device can be a trick.) For the sense 'emblem (as on a shield)': insigne, signum, inscriptio. For the sense 'intention' (as in "left to their own devices"): consilium, propositum. Merriam-Webster says the word itself comes from Middle French division, intention, from Old French deviser 'divide, regulate, tell'. You see what a variable word you're working with! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:02, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC)

As for apparatus : for the meaning of Latin words, we seldom go wrong by treating their morphological constituents more "literally" than their modern reflexes imply. Here: ad 'to, toward' + paratus 'prepared', so in apparatus we've basically got a 'preparation', anything prepared for a purpose. That's almost as general as res. Since machina seems to have a more particular denotation ('anything prepared for performing work'), it might be a better bet. The senses of machina given in Cassell's are: 'crane (for moving heavy weights), windlass (for drawing ships down to the sea), military engine, catapult, ballista', with transferred senses 'fabric, device, contrivance, trick, stratagem'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:17, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I see. :) Big thanks. -- Donatello (disputatio) 16:40, 19 Maii 2013 (UTC).

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