Vicipaedia:Taberna

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Haec est taberna Vicipaediae ubi potes si dubia habes, explanationes quaerere, nuntia ad nos mittere et cetera.
Ut sententias antiquiores legas vide tabernae acta priora.
Quaestio nova
Compendium:
VP:T
Hic colloqui possumus.


De pagina prima[fontem recensere]

Bonum annum 2019 amicis Vicipaedianis voveo. Si paginam primam inspicis mutationes videbis quas hodie temptavi. An "paginam cottidianam" (inter recentissimas selectam) videre placet? An rubricas emendare oportet?

Alia quaestio: paginam primam faciei mobilis inspiciens, eas res tantum videbis quas in sinistra columna faciei plenae habemus. Si faciem mobilem mutare possumus (id quod nescio!) quas res ibi addere suadebis?

Happy New Year to Vicipaedian friends. If you look at the Pagina prima today you will see the changes that I have just tested. What do you think? Is it OK to have a daily page, chosen from among our most recent new pages? Do we need to change the headings?

Another question is about the mobile view Pagina prima. If you look at it on mobile view you will see only those items that we have in the left column of the full Pagina prima. If we can change this (currently, I don't know if we can) what other items would you add to the mobile view Pagina prima? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 2 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Mendum[fontem recensere]

Salvete, vidi paginam nomine "Michael hirschler". Ibi vidi quoddam mendum. Nomen enim "hirschler" scribitur littera magna / maiuscula neque littera parva. Quomodo hoc mendum mutare possum?

Paginam correxi, sed necesse erit fontem addere textumque augere. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:43, 3 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

De pagina prima, pars II[fontem recensere]

Quando potes, s.t.p. paginam primam tam plenam quam mobilem, omnibus browsers omnibusque devices tibi accessibilibus, inspice!

  • An paginae primae, plenae et mobiles (sicut hodie stant), utiles et pulchrae tibi videtur? Quomodo melius ordinare possumus?
  • An malis aliquas res (e pagina plena aut mobili aut ambobus) omittere, aliquas res novas inserere?

De his quaestionibus, o amici, placita vestra date! paginamque primam, quotidie renovatam, quotidie visitate ...! Gratias ago ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 4 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

The "pagina cottidiana" that Andrew introduced and maintains is, in my view, a great idea to feature a new page every day, which invites readers to check back to our pagina prima often, and which shows the activity in the creation of articles on diverse subjects here on Vicipaedia. I therefore suggest that we swap the positions of "Pagina cottidiana" and "Pagina mensualis" on our main page. That way, the "Pagina cottidiana" will become more prominent and our main page will invite readers to check back more often. What do you think? Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 14:10, 10 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Nemine contradicente, I have made the change. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:50, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Starting today, our pagina prima in mobile view contains the same content as in desktop view (but for the gray content menu bar that would take up quite much screen space on mobile view). Feel free to comment here on the content and appearance of our pagina prima (in mobile view and/or in desktop view)! --UV (disputatio) 22:03, 11 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the main page, but I miss a link to Specialis:nuper mutata in the mobile version. Is there a way to include it in the side bar? --Aylin (disputatio) 05:42, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I never noticed. That's an important link for small-to-medium wikis such as ours. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:06, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
As far as I see, Specialis:Nuper mutata does not yet work in the mobile version, see mw:Reading/Web/Advanced mobile contributions#Special Pages. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 22:04, 20 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Editbox[fontem recensere]

For the past few weeks, the box for inserting these items hasn't worked; clicking on them no longer has an effect:

    – — … * † ‡ ← → ↔ ↑ ↓ • § ¶ • [[]] | {{}} ~~~~ [[Categoria:]] {{DEFAULTSORT:}} #REDIRECT [[]] • <ref></ref> <ref name=""></ref> <ref name="" /> <references /> • <nowiki> </nowiki>

(They can still be copied & pasted into texts.) Can their original functionality be restored? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 22:01, 6 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

I'm very glad you raised this. I thought it was just me, because it had happened to me once before. If it's you as well, that's practically a quorum :) Perhaps someone who understands will respond ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:53, 7 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
For reference: I've checked the options listed among the preferences and haven't found anything that looks pertinent. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:47, 7 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
The problem is that our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js uses "mw.toolbar.insertTags" in two places but "mw.toolbar.insertTags" was disabled around Oct/Nov 2018. I am not totally sure about this, but possibly it would be sufficient to replace in our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js
mw.toolbar.insertTags(elem, "", "");
by
$('#wpTextbox1').textSelection('encapsulateSelection', {pre: elem});
and
mw.toolbar.insertTags(elem[0], elem[1] || "", elem[2] || "");
by
$('#wpTextbox1').textSelection('encapsulateSelection', {pre: elem[0], post: elem[1] || "", peri: elem[2] || ""});
but I cannot try this out because editing our MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js is not open to editing by all our magistratus any more, but editing this page has meanwhile been limited to meta:Interface administrators. We could either ask one of the meta:Stewards at meta:Steward requests/Miscellaneous to perform this change, or, if there is community consensus, I could serve as interface administrator and then try the change myself. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 00:47, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I propose that we name UV our interface administrator. Does anyone disagree?
Sit usor:UV "magistratus a faciebus". Addite, s.v.p., placita vestra. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:39, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Summo studio consentio! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:35, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I thought it was my computer when I last tried them. But yes, I think UV should try that!--Xaverius 13:39, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Consentio ego quoque. A. Mahoney (disputatio) 15:18, 8 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Certe consentio. Lesgles (disputatio) 03:11, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Creetur --Iustinus (disputatio) 08:55, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Sic scribatur, sic fiat! (Etc, etc etc) UV is interface adminitrator now. Adam Episcopus (disputatio) 12:13, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

The fix to MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js seems to have worked! You may need to clear your browser's cache for the change to take effect. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:17, 10 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! It's working again for texts being edited; however, it hasn't regained the ability to insert symbols into the Summarium (summary box). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:51, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
It works for me too. Thanks, UV, that's a great relief!
As for the summarium (mentioned by Iacobus), I don't think I ever did that or saw a reason to do it. I get a drop-down box, so, if I wanted one of these groups of characters in the summarium, I guess I'd paste it in once, and then I'd be able to choose it next time. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:40, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I often use an arrow to show corrections of small errors; e.g., yesterday: "annic→annis". IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:03, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
I made another change to MediaWiki:Onlyifediting.js, and inserting text or characters should now work for the summary box as well! You may need to clear your browser's cache for the change to take effect. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:47, 11 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
It works! Thanks, UV! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:30, 12 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Urbs Lacus Salsi[fontem recensere]

Estne nobis mos certus, quo lege nomen loci declinandum sit, cum prima eius vox terminus geographicus est, e. g. Urbs Lacus Salsi: cum rogamus ubi?, respondemus modo locativo (Urbe Lacus Salsi) aut praepositione (in Urbe Lacu Salsi) utendum est? (Nugae sunt ista, certo scio,; sed fortasse recte aut falso fieri possunt.) --Bavarese (disputatio) 11:46, 14 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Ipse scriberem Urbe Lacu Salsi, cum in vel sine in, sed non Urbe Lacus Salsi. De more certo nescio, — tota Vicipaedia ad respondendum perscrutanda est. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 20:54, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
In Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar (#386) legimus: "Appositions are put in the Abl. commonly with in; when the appositive has an attribute, the proper name regularly precedes: Neapoli, in celeberrimo oppido." Ergo, ut videtur: Lacu Salso, in urbe Utensi. ¶ Nomen autem Urbs Lacús Salsí casum genetivum adhibere videtur, de quo Gildersleeve iterum (#361): "A special variety is the use of the Gen. after such words as urbs, oppidum, flumen, etc. This is not found in Plautus and Terence, occurs perhaps but once in Cicero, and seems to be confined to a few cases in poetry and later prose." Ergo: (in) urbe Lacús Salsí. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:30, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Lacus Salsus est ... lacus salsus; adiectivum "salsus" cum nomine 4. decl. "lacus" congruit. Urbs non est lacus, sed iuxta lacum sita: ergo appositionem nullam hic habemus. Est "urbs" (nom.) "Lacús Salsi" (gen.). Si ibi sumus, aut locativo nudo ("urbe") aut cum praepositione ("in urbe") locum nostrum exprimimus, sed non est cur casum genitivum mutemus, qui relationem inter urbem et lacum semper denotare debet. Ego igitur aut "urbe Lacus Salsi" aut "in urbe Lacus Salsi" scribo.
Eodem tempore scribens, aliunde incipiens, ad eandem finem quam Iacobus perveni! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:37, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Recte, ibi Lacus genetivus est, in Urbe Lacus Salsi, sed non in urbe Neapolis. Gratias. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:50, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Dixerim "in urbe Neapoli" (casu ablativo = locativo). Ibi re vera appositionem habemus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:54, 18 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Horst[fontem recensere]

Nonnumquam praenomen theodiscum Horst video latine versum Horatius. Id mihi videtur res dubia esse. Nam illud linguae veteris theodiscae, vel veteris anglicae aut germanicae, est, hoc autem veteris linguae latinae. Suntne testimonia istius aequationis? --Bavarese (disputatio) 19:42, 23 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Bisexualitas/Amphiphylophilia[fontem recensere]

In Vicipaedia "homophylophilia" sed non "homosexualitas" scribimus. Ego unum alii non praepono. Sed video nos "bisexualitas" scribere. Et dubio si verba inter se congruunt. Nonne "amphiphylophilia" (αμφιφυλοφιλία) scribere debemus? Sigur (disputatio) 11:57, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Minime ita. Graeca enim vox ἀμφί non significat ambo, sed circum. Fortasse ἀμφί commutasti cum ἂμφω? --Bavarese (disputatio) 13:55, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Scientia carente Neograece scripsi. "Amphophylophilia" igitur? Sigur (disputatio) 15:18, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Ita, Neograece el:αμφιφυλοφιλία scribitur. O tempora! O mores!
Cavete autem: si verbum Latinum fontibus fidelibus confirmatum iam habemus, fere nunquam verbum sine fonte a nobis confectum substituimus. Oportet fontes quaerere ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:41, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Fons vocabuli bisexualitatis hic invenitur. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:33, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Sed hic "bisexualitas" est qualitas entis binorum sexuum (hermaphroditi), non propensio sexualis! Sigur (disputatio) 13:08, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
An (hic p. 147 apud Google Books) etiam? An (hic p. 249 apud Google Books), ubi (mihi videtur) bisexualitas ab hermaphroditismo quaqua ratione distinguitur? Incertus sum. Theodisce difficiliter lego. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:18, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Theodisce bene lego :). In Primo fonte bisexualitas clarissime ordo binorum sexuum est; in altero verisimiliter etiam ita est (bisexualitas=species binorum sexuum; hermaphroditismus=species cum individuis bina genitalia habentibus; unisexualitas=species sine variis genitaliis). Sigur (disputatio) 13:48, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. Si "bisexualitas" alium sensum habet, si "αμφιφυλοφιλία" lectori classico sensum dubium dat, si "amphophylophilia" (*"ambisexualitas") nullibi usque adhuc exstat, quid? Verbum "διφυλοφιλία" (> diphylophilia, sensu "amor duorum sexuum", cf. bisexualitas) bis Neograece reperio hic et hic (fide Google). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:20, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Diphylophilia optio mala non est. Lemma Anglicum Pansexuality etiam initio in Vicipaedia Neograeca verbo πανφυλοφιλία convertum est. Ita verba homophylophilia, diphylophilia et panphylophilia congruere potuerunt. Sigur (disputatio) 19:59, 25 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Bene! Regulis phonologicis Graecis obtemperans, παμφυλοφιλία "pamphylophilia" praefero. Neograeci aliqui eadem orthographia utuntur, e.g. quater in hoc foro. Sed rem minimam esse censeo! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:52, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
De pamphylophilia nondum in Vicipaedia Latina scribimus, sed mihi gratum est. Quod attinet ad diphylophiliam, opinionemne de eo alii Vicipaediani habent? Sigur (disputatio) 11:10, 26 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)
Quia Andrew et ego assentimur verbo "diphylophilia" cum alii nullam opinionem habeant, nunc eas res mutabo. Sigur (disputatio) 18:33, 27 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Articulus[fontem recensere]

IacobusAmor and I had a little discussion about subdivisions of legal texts, and it was not evident for either of us which way to go. If you take as an example the EU Treaty, it is divided into titles which have chapters which have sections which have articles which have paragraphs. In order to have something immediately understandable, I'm tempted by titulus-caput-sectio-articulus-paragraphus to translate this (some laws also have "parts", for which "pars" would be an obvious option). On the other hand, I know that it will never be perfect, as e.g. a "section" in a British statute is something equivalent to an "article" in a French law, which in turn is equivalent to the "Paragraf" of a German law (to make the confusion complete, Bavarian laws have "Artikel" as have some federal German ones as well). So, it's all pretty complicated, but that is why my first idea was to stay close to the "indigenous" words. Disputatio incipiat! Sigur (disputatio) 21:39, 24 Ianuarii 2019 (UTC)

Latinizing Greek feet &c.[fontem recensere]

We seem to be having some confusion here about how to Latinize Greek feet. Stearn (Botanical Latin, ed. 3a, p.99) tells us: "Compounds of -pus (-footed, -based), acc. sing. -podem, gen. sing. -podis . . . are similarly declined [as -botrys, -glochin, and -odon]." In the case of chilopus (thousand-footed), for example, that would give us the plurals chilopodes, gen. pl. chilopodum, and so we might well go on a drug-induced trip, venture into the third declension, and see aves chilopodes (thousand-footed birds), gen. pl. avium chilopodum. Taxonomical names, however, ending in nom. pl. -poda, appear to be plurals of an assumed -podum, in the second declension. That seems to be modern usage, as in: Nomenclator generum et familiarum Chilopodorum, including data from 1958 to 2005. Also hic, usque ad 1957. The same usage appeared thus in 2017: "Species novae Chilopodorum cavernicolorum Balcanicorum." Examples of contrary usage may be found, but we may have two things here: an adjectival plural, as in chilopodes, -um (third declension), suitable for describing anything at all, and a taxonomically restricted noun-adjective, as in chilopoda, -odorum (second declension), applicable only to a particular classificatory grouping. Can more evidence be found? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:07, 8 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Not easy, is it? Oddly enough, I looked for Google evidence on "Myriapoda" (which occurs in the same article Scolopendromorpha that I think we're talking about and that I edited today) and found a good 19th century source for the genitive plural -um, see Nomina systematica generum Myriapodum, tam viventium quam fossilium. The only Google sources for "Myriapodorum" were ... Vicipaedia.
Now that you impel me to look for the genitive plural of "Chilopoda", which I didn't till now, I find a comparable 19th century source confirming "Myriapodum" and adding "Chilopodum" (title page and middle of page 25 apud Google Books), and I also find that on Vicipaedia the well-known myriapodist IacobusAmor chose "chilopodum" as gen. pl. twice in the text of Cormocephalus rubriceps and of Chilopodum domesticum. How often he has chosen "chilopodorum" I haven't checked ...
But forgive me, this is just a cheap dig. The fact is, as I see it, there isn't full consistency on this in the literature. Afterthought: it's possible that 19th century zoologists were better at handling Greek-type declensions in Latin than their late 20th century colleagues. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:33, 8 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Mönchengladbach[fontem recensere]

I'm preparing a little stub for the town of Mönchengladbach. The problem I have with it, is that the town is in short known as "Gladbach", which is duly attested in Latin as "Gladbacum" (with variants like "Gladebacum" or "Gladebachum", also the adjective "Gladbacensis"). The official name has been lengthend in the 19th century to better distinguish it from the town of "Bergisch-Gladbach", but even today, locals simply say "Gladbach", as long as there is no ambiguity.

To start the article, I was thinking of something like this:

Gladbacum[footnote with source] (Theodisce "Gladbach") vel Theodisce hodie plene "Mönchengladbach", id est Gladbacum Monachorum, est urbs in Germania et Rhenania Septentrionalis-Vestfalia, circiter 262 200 incolarum.

I could explain the official name change later on.

But then what should the page title be? I haven't found a source saying that Bergisch-Gladbach was also translated as Gladbacum, but that's rather probable. Therefore, "Gladbacum" alone would seem problematic. Both towns are in the Rhineland, so it's difficult to add a clear geographic qualifier. I think that as "Gladbacum" is attested, it should be there, but can we dare "Gladbacum Monachorum" although only half of it is attested? Or something like "Gladbacum (Mönchengladbach)"? Any other ideas?

And by the way, does anyone know how to get this into Wikimedia Commons? It's old enough so that there couldn't be any copyright issues, but it's stuck in the German Wiki for now. Sigur (disputatio) 08:11, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I'd keep it just as you present it, adding perhaps a {{convertimus}} after Gladbacum Monachorum. Or even maybe something on the lines of "Gladbacum est nomen olim datum urbi hodiernae Mönchengladbach, quae Latine est Gladbacum Monachorum, blabla"--Xaverius 08:33, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I agree. In some cases longer modern names don't need to be literally converted to Latin -- the short name remains valid and the lengthening achieves nothing -- but in this case, since the lengthening makes a useful distinction, and I think non-locals nearly always call the place by its longer name, we should go with it. "Monachorum" is a perfectly good translation and it is used in other similar names.
In the text, we just have to tell the truth. We don't pretend that the Latin name "Gladbacum Monachorum" is already used if it isn't. We admit that it's our translation and we say why. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:44, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
This kind of naming occurs elsewhere too. France, for example, has Colombey-les-Belles and Colombey-les-Deux-Églises. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:29, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Use of italics[fontem recensere]

A side issue: in standard typography (at least over here), words cited as words, rather than the things they represent, are italicized (less often, put between double quotes). So definitions of the form "X is the name of a thing" require X to be italicized—and for a lemma, that would be a silly thing to do when, as here, the definition can be made to read "X is a thing." Quotation marks might even be sillier. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:22, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

On Vicipaedia we most often use italics for words that are not Latin, especially in contexts where it's helpful to distinguish them from words that are Latin. Hence, in the first paragraph of Gladbacum Monachorum, the German name goes into italics (I've just fixed that: OK I hope?) to distinguish it from the two Latin names. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:52, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, that's another function of italics. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:41, 15 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Interface with Commons[fontem recensere]

Currently, if you click on an image to see more details, you see -- on the Commons site, just below the image title -- the words "E Wikimedia Commonte". This looks like a joke, though someone may have intended it seriously. I'd love to convert it into real Latin, but although I have an account at Translatewiki I have no idea how to find this message. Can anyone help?

A direct translation of the English could be "E Communibus Vicimediorum", but the accurate statement (since the page is "at Commons", not "from Commons") would be "apud Communia" or "Fasciculus apud Communia Vicimediorum". That's what I would say. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:10, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Well, this is a quite intricate thing. The MediaWiki software does not handle Latin declensions properly. Still, some time ago, I managed to teach a subset of Latin declensions to the MediaWiki software so that the MediaWiki software at least handles the Latin site names listed ad Usor:UV/MediaWiki l10n/grammar decently. "Wikimedia Commons", however, is not a Latin site name and in particular declensions of non-Latin names will most probably fail with sometimes funny results.
I fear that there are not too many people who, like you, have edited their commons preferences to display commons with the Latin user interface. Still, you could try to persuade an admin on commons to change commons:MediaWiki:Tagline/la to an at least grammatically correct wording. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 22:06, 18 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, yes, I see how it works now. Indeed, if "Wikimedia Commons" were a compound of "mons", the result would be perfect. You're right, I only see this message because Latin is my chosen language at Commons, and, understanding so much, I can face the consequences bravely. But maybe I will try to persuade someone to correct the tagline ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:17, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Afrikaans[fontem recensere]

We have a lemma "Lingua Africana" which is supposed to mean "Afrikaans". There is a footnote, but it doesn't give a source for this usage. The only other place where I've found this translation is glosbe.com, and that is probably based on Vicipaedia in the first place. In any language I know except Afrikaans itself, adding the adjective for "African" to "language" just means what it means in English: an African language (In Afrikaans, the convention is to use a compound noun if you want to say "African language: "'Afrikataal" instead of "Afrikaanse taal", see here). So, I think this is confusing and the lemma should be "Afrikaans", unless someone finds another Latin word somewhere (but I've searched a lot and in vain).

Now, it does bug me to have a word you can't decline and I'm wondering whether we couldn't say "Afrikaans sive Afrikaner" (the latter adjective is rather ethnic than linguistic but can be used for the language as well) and add a footnote saying that we inflect it like "liber" but that we have invented that: "Constat linguam Afrikaneram*, quae..." with the footnote "* De forma vide liber, -a, -um, sed extra Vicipaediam huius usus testificatio vix inveniri potest." Sigur (disputatio) 17:23, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I would be against "Afrikaner -a -um" without a source -- and I suspect there won't be a good source. By all means prove me wrong!
You are right that "Lingua Africana" is a bad name. If we drop it, we still have the option of "lingua Afrikaans", declining the word "lingua" so that we always know the intended case. We often have to use that solution, it's a natural thing to do with indeclinable names. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:38, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
We could add meridionalis to Lingua Africana. --Maria.martelli (disputatio) 18:56, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

If I had a source (even a bad one), I wouldn't be suggesting the footnote I'm suggesting :). As to Lingua Africana meridionalis, in Dutch they sometimes do that ("Zuidafrikaans"), but it would still be ambiguous (there are quite a number of South African languages). Sigur (disputatio) 19:21, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

I think Maria's suggestion is worth considering. It suggests to me a second possibility, "lingua Africana (Batava)". This is how we distinguished the two languages that are called "Scotica": we call one lingua Scotica (Gadelica) and the other lingua Scotica (Teutonica) (these correspond to terms that are sometimes used in English). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:33, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hard to be enthusiastic about that, but it would take away the ambiguity, at least. Sigur (disputatio) 20:45, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
BTW, I found this as well: Disputatio:Kimberley (Africa Australis) (and I just can't decide whether "australafricanus, -a, -um" would be less ambiguous or not...) Sigur (disputatio) 21:09, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Meridionalis is postclassical. Australis is classical, and Ovid has polus australis for 'south pole'. Austrinus, too, is classical, as Piny has vertex austrinus for 'south pole'. And so australis and austrinus seem good for everywhere in Africa (not to mention most of South America). Meridianus seems classically more restricted to the equator and latitudes north of it (though of course that distribution could be a feature of imperfect sampling). Note also that we have the continent & country of Australia, not Meridiana. ¶ So Lingua Africana (Australis) might be best. Doesn't afrikaans in its own language mean simply 'African' or 'African-ish'—h.e. '(lingua) Africana'? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:32, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
It does indeed, and that's why our current "Lingua Africana" agrees with our general rule (if there's no Latin source, and if the name is translatable in common words, we do so) but I think one must agree that it is annoyingly ambiguous or misleading or both.
Yes, "Australafricana" exists in biological Latin, and it would correspond to the Dutch term "Zuidafrikaans" mentioned by Sigur above [and the language we're discussing originated at the very southernmost point of Africa]. Not to be dismissed, I think ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:43, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what adjective we would use for anything South African. If that is going to be anything else than "australafricanus", then I vote for that term for the language!
On a side note (concerning IacobusAmor's comment): My understanding is that "meridies" means "noon" and by extension the direction where you find the sun at noon: south. If that is so, you definitely don't want to use the word for anything in the southern hemisphere, because that's were the sun at noon is in the north! Sigur (disputatio) 21:54, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Africaans vel Africana (Batava), Africana Batava, Batava Africana mihi meliores videntur; nam meridionali/australi addito ambiguitas manet: multae linguae in Africa Meridionali/Australi in usu sunt. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 22:11, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Or we go back to Cape Dutch and say "Batava Capitensis"... More seriously, I'm thinking more and more that one way or the other only some combination with "Batava" can take away the ambiguity. Sigur (disputatio) 22:25, 19 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
"Batava Capitensis" is nice and historic. As a straight translation of what was once a standard term, yes, I guess it would be OK.
In general, I agree, it's desirable to have a different adjective for languages and for nation-states. I'm sure we can achieve that in this case. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:42, 20 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Should I conclude from the silence that everyone can live with Lingua Batava Capitensis'? Fine with me! This would then be the page name (which, as I've been rightly reminded of recently, would percolate through into Wikidata), but in the introductory sentence, I would suggest to give alternatives in bold, something like this:
"Lingua Batava Capitensis, vulgo Afrikaans (quod adiectivo Africana convertitur, sed hoc adiectivo ambiguitas manet), est lingua Germanica in Africa Australi atque..."
Looking at the article further down, I'm wondering what the adverb is supposed to be. "Batave Capitenter"? Not that I would ever count on it in Latin, but my intuition has doubts... A compound (Capiti-Batave...)? Any other ideas from real Latinists? Sigur (disputatio) 19:32, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Exempli gratia:
"Lingua Batava Capitensis<ref>fons</ref>, vulgo Afrikaans<ref>I.e. simpliciter Africana.</ref> etc.
aut
"Lingua Africana (Batava){{Convertimus}}, vulgo Afrikaans etc.
aut aliter. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 20:00, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
[Edit conflict:] Nonne tu Latinista verus es? Mea mente paginam movere potes ad Lingua Batava Capitensis cum sententia prima sicut proponis.
"Batave Capitenter" non amo! Adiectivum duplex in adverbium duplex aegre convertitur, sed, loco adverbii, ablativo uti potes ("lingua Batava Capitensi"; "hac lingua"). Argumento commentationis semel definito, Latinistae rarius, quam scriptores linguarum vulgarium, repetere solent. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:23, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Latinistae veri unum verbum inter duo in Victionario requirere non solent... Sed bene, movebo. Sigur (disputatio) 21:04, 21 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

De translationibus nominum "Seaplane" et " Seaplane Base"[fontem recensere]

Quaestionem a disputatione mea movi:

Renovatiovicipaediae Andreae salutem dicit. I found myself lost today; as already shown in the title, I was wondering how to translate those 2 terms I need for a page here on wiki. It has been not a long time since I've been into Vicipaedia, so I'm not sure how to create a proper discussion about the topic, but definetely I did notice you as one of the most active user around the site and I thought you could help me. Thank you. RenovatioVicipaediae (disputatio) 23:40, 22 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

It's often best to ask on the Taberna, so I'll move your question there and we'll see what other editors suggest. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:58, 23 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hydroplanum, ut Leo Latinus affirmat, basestatio? Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 17:31, 23 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Western etc.[fontem recensere]

Et mea vice rogo: quomodo western Latine sit? Leo ibidem hippodrama, hippocinema dat. Possibile est, sed haud semper de equis et equitatu in western agitur. Revolucrale nequaquam intelligo (qui revolucrat?). An alia verba iam proposita sunt? Quomodo cowboy? Num bubulcus? Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:28, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Cum locutores multarum aliarum linguarum cowboy et western ab Anglico sermone mutuati sint, quin etiam nos ad hanc mutuationem decurramus? Etiam Leo Latinus, cum hippodrama suadet, vocabulum mutuaticium commendat, quamquam Graeci hodierni γουέστερν dicunt. Itaque cowboy et western, cum ad certum genus artis referuntur, termini technici esse videntur, qui insigniter difficiles translatu esse solent. Nec vaccis neque aliis rebus bubulis cowboys illi in pelliculis westernis prodeuntes multum detineri videntur, nam suum mundum fabulosum incolunt. Tamen facile concedo vocabula ab Anglico mutuata vix et aegre declinabilia esse. ¶ Sin autem more anthropologorum de vita et operibus cotidianis variorum bubulcorum (cowboy, gaucho, vaquero, &c) narrandum sit, consentaneum videtur bubulco uti appellatione generali, cui indicium quoddan geographicum appendi possit. Neander (disputatio) 18:25, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Nomina generum artis re vera paene nomina propria sunt, et western non solum genus cinematographiae, sed et musicae, quod nec -drama nec -cinema nominari potest. Et "cowboy" non est "gaucho", quamquam ambo bubulci sunt. Sed cum scribo western, mox corrigo vestern, vesternicus, hmmm..., occidentalis? Country and western - musica Americana rustica et occidentalis? Sed haec explicatio est, non nomen paginae. Nescio, fortasse aliquando western scribam. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:45, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Fortasse tantum occidentalis, -is, scil. pellicula (adiectivum = substantivum). Confer continens, -entis, scil. terra. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:16, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Pellicula occidentalis ut lingua Africana est, eandem dignitatem et eadem damna habet. Purum est, sed incertum, et, ut lectores intelligant, explicatio quaedam addenda erit (pellicula occidentalis<ref>I.e. western.</ref> etc.) Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 14:59, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Ita: locutio "pelliculae occidentales" mihi dicit "pelliculae in cultura occidentali creatae" (si haec cultura una et definibilis sit). Responsum utilem non habeo :( Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:21, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Citizenship[fontem recensere]

I'm thinking of starting an article on "Citizenship" (listed here), but I'm wondering what it should be. "Civitas" is the first thing to come to mind, but we already use that for "state", and sometimes for "city". Ambiguous enough, as it is. My next idea was "Status civitatis" but that reminds me of "Status Civitatis Vaticanae" where, to make things worse, "status" means "state" and "civitas" means "city". At this point, I'm at "Status civicus", but any other suggestions are welcome. Sigur (disputatio) 17:13, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

To not use civitas would be a crime, I'd say. Our Civitas (discretiva) has Status civitatis. But if the Vatican is misleading anything on the lines of Civitas (status) or civitas (ius civium) might do (?).--Xaverius 17:49, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
For English 'citizenship', Cassell's (1968) and Traupman (2007) give one and only one Latin word: civitas, with no further explanation. Furthermore, the primary definition of civitas in L&S is "the condition or privileges of a (Roman) citizen, citizenship, freedom of the city." The suggested status civitatis might seem to mean 'citizenship status', which would seem so general as to include noncitizens. (Q. "What's your citizenship status?" A. "I'm a resident alien.") So I'd say Xaverius, who generously tore himself away from his rugby scrumming so as to comment, is on the right track with regard to our trying to avoid gratuitous criminality. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:26, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I usually keep an eye on here! And I have been working a lot recently on citizenship after Rome and the use of civis in 6th-7th c. texts, so this immediately drew my attention!--Xaverius 10:19, 26 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
Hmm. If there is nothing else, I think I will go for "Civitas (ius civium)" then ("Civitas" alone is already taken and thus not an option). Sigur (disputatio) 23:25, 24 Februarii 2019 (UTC)
I agree with others that "civitas" is the correct term. In fact its use in the sense of "body politic, state" must really be derived from this, but both uses are common in classical writers, notably Cicero. Hence it eventually came to be a synonym for "urbs", and we do see examples of that on Vicipaedia (notably in the name of Civitas Capitis), but it's better to avoid that usage in general -- "civitas" has enough meanings already. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:33, 25 Februarii 2019 (UTC)

Listing the redlinks[fontem recensere]

Does Vicipaedia have a list of redlinks ranked by the number of articles in which they appear? The purpose & utility of such a list would be obvious. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:21, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)

I've wondered about this myself, but now you have asked, I've sneaked around a bit. Found this. Sigur (disputatio) 18:38, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Macte! Gratias! This is a surprise, but many of those at the top of the list have titles that suggest that they're among the oldest redlinks in the whole project! Nobody wants to deal with them! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:45, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)
The list is certainly useful. I have the impression Lesgles has regularly worked from it.
Keep in mind that many of the items are in that list because they feature in just one infobox or navigation box that appears on that number of existing pages. So the need for the new page (and the reliability of its name) may depend entirely on the judgment of the Vicipaedian who created the one infobox or navbox. That having been said, if the list gives people ideas for new pages, that's great!
That and other useful automatically-compiled lists are accessed via the "Paginae speciales" link on the left, or by typing Specialis:Paginae speciales. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:05, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it's far from anyone's idea of the most important missing articles (VP:10000 is better for that). But I've sometimes found it satisfying to knock them off. And right now the ones at the top are Roman subjects (linked to from Formula:De Roma antiqua), which would certainly be good to have. Lesgles (disputatio) 03:05, 12 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Yes, adding articles on the 10K list is important, but so is the blueing of redlinks. I was surprised, however, at the numbers at the high end of the tally. Using the Quaerere box, I'd noticed that Inflorescentia was a redlink in thirtysome articles, and that seemed like a lot! So I promptly added the article. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 04:14, 12 Martii 2019 (UTC)
Macte! Lesgles (disputatio) 13:18, 13 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, it looks like Specialis:Paginae desideratae, the former version of Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae, is actually being refreshed, despite the note at the top. Perhaps Usor:UV can confirm this; it might save UVbot some work.

Yes, Specialis:Paginae desideratae has been working again for some time now. I have now updated the description of Vicipaedia:Dump/Paginae desideratae accordingly. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:24, 15 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Typographical bother[fontem recensere]

For the past week or so, Vicipaedia has been ignoring linebreaks in texts composed offline and uploaded into the harenarium (an editing page of the "fontem recensere" kind). The result is one huge paragraph, with not even a blankspace marking where the paragraph breaks should be. This has been happening whether the texts had been composed in Microsoft Word or on an email platform. Can anything be done about it? If the condition persists, the addition of long articles (and long bibliographies) will have to be minimized. Time is not infinite, at least for mortals. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:38, 10 Martii 2019 (UTC)

This is not something I've noticed, as I normally compose directly in the Wiki edit window, or else in a text editor; I've never found MS Word useful in this context. Others could perhaps help ...
Do double line breaks solve the problem? That would be my first move. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:20, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)
No, nor do triple linebreaks. All linebreaks disappear. I don't recall precisely when the problem began, but "about a week ago" would be close. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:06, 11 Martii 2019 (UTC)

Mutationes (modestae) primae paginae nostrae[fontem recensere]

Mutationes quasdam in pagina experimentali Vicipaedia:Pagina prima/Nova vides. Res utiles e Porta communi in columnam dextram inserui, et praecipue "translationem hebdomadis" quaque hebdomade inter Vicipaedias omnes propositam, apud nos ab Usor:UV monstratam. Quibus rebus mutatis, portam communem cum pagina prima contribui suadeo. Ita unam portam, quotidie renovatam, omnibus lectoribus praebere possumus. Quid dicite, o amici?

Quis novas nugas "Scin tu ...?" quaque hebdomade addere velit?

Please look at Vicipaedia:Pagina prima/Nova: you will see some (modest) proposed changes to our pagina prima. In the right column I have placed the most useful items from the present Porta communis. This includes the "translation of the week", a cross-wiki project which UV maintains here: I think it will get better visibility on the pagina prima. I suggest that if this material is incorporated in the pagina prima, the porta communis can then be merged with it. We will have a single front page or portal, updated every day, to welcome all users. What do you think?

Who would like to add a new "Did you know ...?" once a week? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:25, 22 Martii 2019 (UTC)