Disputatio:Patata

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Is potata attested? I would think that word means "a drink". If any one word is chosen patata would be best as at least it is attested in spanish and italian. Of course the phrase pomum terrestre "earth fruit" is a close enough description as well.--Rafaelgarcia 17:17, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I believe patata comes from Chechua language in Peru where potatos where first cultivated. from the Spanish wiki:
La palabra "papa" es un préstamo del término quechua papa. Del cruce entre batata (Ipomoea batatas), palabra originaria de la isla La Española, y papa resulta "patata", nombre que, por la similitud de formas, le fue aplicado en un principio por los conquistadores tanto a la papa como a la batata. Papa aparece por escrito por primera vez hacia 1540. Por su parte, patata se usa en 1606 con el significado de batata y sólo a partir del siglo XVIII con el significado de papa.
According to the above patata came from papa so papa would be a great name too, except for the similarity to papa' i.e. "dad" . This may be partly why the spanish chose patata instead of simply papa for the potato.--Rafaelgarcia 17:24, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

I found this on the internet:

in the Spanish language as used in Spain = potata; but in Mexico = papa;. in the German language as used in Germany = kartoffel; but in Austria = erdappel. ...

also: potata de Tortilla?

I continue searching. --Alex1011 17:52, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be a writing error, patata de tortilla is much more common than potata de tortilla. --Alex1011 17:54, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
My dictionary says (Langenscheidt) "bulbus solani". --Alex1011 17:56, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
I think bulbus solani is specifically refering to the fuit itself. I.e. fleshy growth of the solanus. Pomum solani or poumum terrestre would work just as well. Or just pomum or patata or papa. The last two would be the least ambiguous.--Rafaelgarcia 18:17, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
Despite the obvious correctness of patata, at least to me, I do not find any latin attestations to it. Instead, in very recent literature on the net, I find it universally translated as "pomum terrestre" and french fries as poma terrestria fricta. I think this is worth some more research. Given the history, it just has to be the case that patata or papa is attested. Pomum terrestre is an apt definition but patata or papa should be the word. Of course I don't have very good dictionaries. Can someone try to look?
Interesting website: http://etimologias.dechile.net/?patata
--Rafaelgarcia 20:19, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Ah I finally found some attestations from Morgan:

potato batâta, ae* (16th and 17th cent., various spellings), mâlum (v. pomum) terrestre (v. terrae) < tuber solani (Eg. S.L. 77)
French fries mâla terrestria fricta, patâtae frictae < tubera solani assa (Eg. S.L. 77)

--Rafaelgarcia 20:25, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Of course, the plant is Solanum tuberosum, i.e. the tuberous nightshade, which is itself a vote for tuber [solaneum] as the part eaten, though 'pomum terrestre' has its merit as the translation of the French circumlocution. Batata/patata and its family seem more like they should refer to Ipomoea batatas (hence the name), but that may just be me; the Greeks seem to have el:πατάτα for the solanum and el:γλυκοπατάτα for the batatas instead. —Mucius Tever 23:01, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
Batata is properly the name of the sweet potato; while patata comes from the Chechua word papa (the original word meaning potato) by similarity to batata. Based on evidence of Morgan and elsewhere, patata apparently made it into late latin, and thereby into spanish, italian, greek and english (where potato, short o being like short a in english) among others.
I think either patata or tuber or pomum are fine one word translations for potato, but patata is the most specific. An the most useful for translating french fries-> patatae frictae.--Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
Patata is probably fine. Let's remember, in difficult cases, there is also the possibility of using the scientific Latin name as our title -- I notice the Spanish and Italian wikis do just that. No problem about attestations for Solanum tuberosum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:51, 7 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Certainly solanum is what you hear at conventicula. I've even seen a shirt, joking on the English phrase "potato/potahto" which reads: "You say potato, and I say tuber solani.--Ioscius (disp) 04:23, 8 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that was tuber solanum rather than tuber solani that Morgan gives?--Rafaelgarcia 04:57, 8 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
Solanum substantive, shirt, yes, said solani.--Ioscius (disp) 05:32, 8 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

What to call potatoes in Latin is proverbially thorny. Like bus. No two Latinists can agree. But among the contenders are:

  • Solanum tuberosum (in context just solanum might work, but is kinda dicey). Problem with this name is that what is tuberous about this particular nightshade isn't the solanum itself, but the root.
  • Tuber solani (at least for the tuber itself). Morgan doesn't like this because, he claims, the original point is that the root is "tuberous," i.e. bulbous, not that it is caled a tuber in English. I don't know if I buy this, especially given that the Romans called a certain species of apple tuber.
  • Tuberosolanum, which is a nice compromise, and I think my favorite.
  • Malum terrestre, a nice calque on Fr. pome de terre. It turns out that Pliny already mentions a malum terrae, but obviously that's not a potato.
  • Patata, a genuine term from the age of exploration, though many (including Terentius) dislike it. The only real problem, though, is that (as mentioned above) technically batatas = sweet potato, whereas S. tuberosum is properly pappas. Morgan gives some citations for both forms. He argues that because every European language but Spanish has generalized the patata root to the "savory" potato, it's legitimate to do the same in Latin.

Probably some more too if I think about it. I once jokingly did a poll on this subject on my journal, but it's poorly indexed and even I coan't find it right now. --Iustinus 01:09, 16 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Castillian spanish uses the term Patata rather than Papa, It is American spanish that uses Papa, which for historical reasons is actually a superior term because it more closely reflects the original Qechua term. THe one thing Patata has going for it is that it is attested and much easier to say than Tubersolanum. Is Pappa attested in Latin? --Rafaelgarcia 00:54, 17 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
I could swear it is, but no luck finding it so far. --Iustinus 01:40, 17 Decembris 2007 (UTC)
Aha, here's something. Not a lot, but something:
  • 1599 Gerardi Catalogus Arborum, Fruticum ac Plantarum p. 15:
Papus orbiculatus Bastard Potatoes.
Papus Hispanorum Spanish Potatoes.
--Iustinus 01:58, 17 Decembris 2007 (UTC)

Poma?[fontem recensere]

I find only pomum, neutr. or poma, neutr. plur. Poma, fem, sing. would mean Haec poma, but this is not in the dictionaries. --Alex1011 18:01, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Yes Hoc pomum n. sing., Haec poma n. pl->These fruit --Rafaelgarcia 18:11, 6 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Circular redirecting[fontem recensere]

Patata is a tuber of the plant known as Solanum tuberosum, and those are different concepts, but clicking on the latter takes you to the former (which has a gratuitous taxobox that I'm about to remove). IacobusAmor 18:19, 4 Ianuarii 2009 (UTC)

OK, here's the taxobox, which someone may move to the article Solanum tuberosum when it comes into existence in a such a way that it isn't a redirect to something that it isn't. (A Solanum tuberosum is not a patata.) IacobusAmor 18:23, 4 Ianuarii 2009 (UTC)
Potato flowers.jpg
Solanum tuberosum

Classis : Asteridae 
Ordo : Solanales 
Familia : Solanaceae 
Genus : Solanum 
Species : Solanum tuberosum 
   

Bulbus, pomum, tuber[fontem recensere]

At the moment, the article says the tuber under discussion is a bulb, or a fruit, or a tuber; but that's way too loose for comfort, as, in botany, a tuber is most definitely not a bulb, and neither is a fruit, since a fruit is a ripened ovary. IacobusAmor 18:28, 4 Ianuarii 2009 (UTC)