Disputatio:Praestigiae
praestigium or praestigiae = deception; it only secondarily means juggling according to L&S and Cassell's. Also more directly, praestigia is a name of a biological genus. So I would suggest this is moved to a more suitable title and a disambig be created. The grammar is sort of bad too, needs improvement.-Also how is juggling a religious act? That part is all screwed up. Praestigia is uncommon for praestigiae, but no source given for the meaning asserted here being primary.-208.43.160.10 07:28, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- Words in this topic area are difficult to pin down. When it comes to the professional terms we have ioculator, which is the direct ancestor of juggler and jongleur and was sometimes used in medieval Latin as their equivalent. Already in classical times there were ioculatores scaenici, according to L&S. But one suspects their skills extended beyond juggling, as did those of jongleurs. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:34, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- For 'juggling', Ainsworth's gives praestigiae, fallaciae, dolus, and for 'juggler' praestigiator & praestigiatrix. IacobusAmor 12:07, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- Trouble is that L&S and Ainsworth (don't know about Cassell's) are older sources, written when "juggle" and juggler actually referred to either deception or legerdemain — not to handling multiple objects concurrently by throwing them in the air (or however it's usually defined now). For example, the first public domain Google Books result for "juggler's tricks" (to use the L&S gloss) identifies it with legerdemain, and only one out of the first page of results uses juggling as we know it today as an example. (Which isn't to say that praestigiae isn't used for it in Latin—just that citing these sources doesn't necessarily show it. Ainsworth's 18th-century gloss of 'to juggle' as 'praestigiis decipere' particularly suggests he had something else in mind.) —Mucius Tever 17:17, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- Some sources suggest a juggler (in our sense) could be called pilarius or ventilator, but that the Romans might not have had a dedicated name for the activity. —Mucius Tever 17:33, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- Trouble is that L&S and Ainsworth (don't know about Cassell's) are older sources, written when "juggle" and juggler actually referred to either deception or legerdemain — not to handling multiple objects concurrently by throwing them in the air (or however it's usually defined now). For example, the first public domain Google Books result for "juggler's tricks" (to use the L&S gloss) identifies it with legerdemain, and only one out of the first page of results uses juggling as we know it today as an example. (Which isn't to say that praestigiae isn't used for it in Latin—just that citing these sources doesn't necessarily show it. Ainsworth's 18th-century gloss of 'to juggle' as 'praestigiis decipere' particularly suggests he had something else in mind.) —Mucius Tever 17:17, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- For 'juggling', Ainsworth's gives praestigiae, fallaciae, dolus, and for 'juggler' praestigiator & praestigiatrix. IacobusAmor 12:07, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- I was translating off the French: "La jonglerie ... est à la fois considérée comme un jeu, un sport, un art ou encore un rite religieux." There's also a mention of religion on en:.
- Also it was definitely near midnight when I wrote this, haha, so I apologise about the creative grammar. =) I'll fix it as well as I can. — Mattie disp 18:18, 11 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- As to the "religious rite" question, the writer of the French article seems to have been thinking of Tonga (see further in that same article) but cites no source. Iacobus should be in a good position to confirm or deny this. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:57, 12 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- The traditional culture of West Polynesia is famous for juggling, called palo in Samoa and hiko in Tonga. The practice seems to have died out in Samoa since the first decades of the twentieth century; or maybe the idea got transferred into the practice of twirling flaming batons (in a novelty called the "fire dance"), which, having arisen around the time of WWII (in Havaii?) as entertainment for tourists, has spread to numerous islands. For a not-so-entertaining and potentially catastrophic performance in Fiji last month, performed inside a museum built of wood, see here. IIRC, one of Adrienne L. Kaeppler's articles has a photo of a Tongan girl with six items in the air, but what's this about religion? It's entertainment! IacobusAmor 13:26, 12 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I'd taken off the religion comment while fixing the article yesterday (which I'd been planning to do anyway, considering I'd written it at midnight), so there's no problem. — Mattie disp 16:46, 12 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- The traditional culture of West Polynesia is famous for juggling, called palo in Samoa and hiko in Tonga. The practice seems to have died out in Samoa since the first decades of the twentieth century; or maybe the idea got transferred into the practice of twirling flaming batons (in a novelty called the "fire dance"), which, having arisen around the time of WWII (in Havaii?) as entertainment for tourists, has spread to numerous islands. For a not-so-entertaining and potentially catastrophic performance in Fiji last month, performed inside a museum built of wood, see here. IIRC, one of Adrienne L. Kaeppler's articles has a photo of a Tongan girl with six items in the air, but what's this about religion? It's entertainment! IacobusAmor 13:26, 12 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
- As to the "religious rite" question, the writer of the French article seems to have been thinking of Tonga (see further in that same article) but cites no source. Iacobus should be in a good position to confirm or deny this. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:57, 12 Decembris 2010 (UTC)
From Lewis and Short praestigiae seems definitely more classical than praestigia. Beyond that I can't go, but I will move to "praestigiae". Let discussion continue if it wants! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:56, 14 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)