Disputatio:Incubatrix Vicimediorum

De nomine

Quomodo et cur nomen "incubitrum" accepimus? Non est (nisi fallor) vocabulum Latinum. Lege nostra fingere non licet. An "incubator" hoc sensu nomen Latinum sit, incertus sum, sed est verum nomen huius situs: uti licet sicut verbum mutuatum etiamsi barbarum. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:59, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

“Non est (nisi fallor) vocabulum Latinum”: At neque erat "incubator"! Nomina agentis ex supino derivantur, et supinum incubandi est incubitum, haud incubatum. Ergo formae correctae sunt incubitrum et incubitor, haud incubatrum neque incubator. Ut scripsi cum pagina moverem, Either "incubitrum" or "incubitor", definitely not "incubator" (supine of "incubo" is "incubitum"). --Grufo (disputatio) 10:02, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Post illa. Vocabulum incubitoris in biologia inveniri potest. --Grufo (disputatio) 10:16, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Cum paginam crearem, nomen e formula iam existente sumpsi (quae nomen Anglicum et inscriptionem situs interretialem servat). "Incubitrum" haud male, sed inventio nostra est. Vocabulum "incubator" in Latinitate inveniri potest, sed alium sensum habet. Del Col dat "incubatrix" (sic, nam Hispanice feminini generis est), "cella incubationis" (melius, quamquam longius). Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:20, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Vocabula "Incubatrix" et "Incubitor" accipienda sunt, mea mente (cf. vocabulum post-classicum "incubitus" (4a decl.) = cooperimentum ovorum). "Incubitrum", a nobis fictum (an recte dico?), regulis nostris excludere debemus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:27, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

“Vocabula "Incubatrix" et "Incubitor" accipienda sunt”: Verum est. At vocabula “incubitricis” et “incubitoris” etiam invenimus. Aliquam oscillationem (in codicibus manuscriptis?) inter incubit- et incubat- video: eidem citationi Plinii occurro in ambobus vocabulis incubitus -us, m. et incubatus -us, m. apud Forcellini. Citatio est Plin. Nat., X, 75, 152: “si incubitu tonuit, ova pereunt”.

“"Incubitrum" ... regulis nostris excludere debemus”: Nihilominus nullum nomen Latinum pro Anglice “incubator (egg)” – i.e. machina – habemus; si paginam Latinam creem, nomen "Incubitrum (ovorum)" eligam, {{Convertimus}} in pagina scribens. Mihi videtur hic esse casus ordinarius ubi nostrum nomen creare solemus. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:35, 27 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Usque hodie Vicipaediani vocabula creare non solemus, praesertim in titulis paginarum nostrarum, unde alii plurimi per Vicidata in interrete vocabula Latina divulgare solent. Haec res mutationem evocabit in regula nostra (vide Vicipaedia:Noli fingere): ergo aut hic aut in Taberna disputare debemus. Consensu editorum, aut nemine contradicente, regulam mutare certe possumus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:57, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Si talis disputatio incipitur, incertus sum (hoc momento) quomodo respondeam. Sed hoc casu difficultatem minime sentio. Cur "Machina incubitrix" et "Arca incubitrix" [sive et "Cella ..." cum Demetrio] dici non possunt? Quibus locutionibus semel scriptis, hic inceptus "Incubitrix Vicimediorum" appellari licebit. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:31, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Sed quemadmodum "Machina incubitrix" aut "Arca incubitrix" non sunt tituli quoque ficti? Non multa scripta sunt apud Vicipaedia:Noli fingere. Veniam peto quia nunc de lingua Latina Anglice loquebar…

There is a small difference between -trix and -tor on one side and -trum on the other side. The first two are agent noun suffixes, whereas the third is an instrument noun suffix. It means that the first two indicate who does the action, while the third indicates an instrument where(by) the action is done (which is not always the same as the instrument that does the action, although sometimes it is). This is clearly visible in the nouns obtained from lego: while on the one side lector and lectrix are the ones who read, on the other side lectrum (Isid. Gloss.) is the instrument that allows the reading (definitely not the tool that does the reading for us). In some instruments “allowing the action” is the same as “doing the action (mechanically)”, and so “computatrum” allows the computing… by doing it.

This difference becomes important in the nouns that we derive from incubo, because the verb itself is not a causative: it means to lie, sleep, but it does not mean to put someone to lie, sleep. And so incubitores / incubatores in Tert. Anim. XLIX are the “sleepers”, not the ones that put others to sleep. However, if we used -trum instead of -tor, exactly like lectrum is what allows the reading, incubitrum would be what allows the sleeping. And that is exactly what we need for an “egg incubator”. Machina incubitrix, on the other hand, would be “a machine who is a sleeper”. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:25, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Not a sleeper, that's not the point at all. A brooder or incubator. The machine broods or incubates. Like a hen. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:37, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

In that sense it could theoretically work. But then there would be the usual debate about the opportunity of not using -trum… And most importantly, I am not aware of any attestation of incubator / incubatrix in the sense of English “incubator”, “that keeps the eggs warm” (but of course that meaning is attested for the verb incubo). So, if we used incubator / incubatrix with that meaning, and especially adding a machine to it, technically we would be making words up too. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:50, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Addendum de Gambro incubitore. Maybe Gambrus incubitor is called like that because it broods the eggs? Or maybe because it likes to sleep? Honestly I have no idea. --Grufo (disputatio) 16:00, 28 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Lewis & Short say that "incubo" in the sense brood, the sense we want, has a (rare) supine "incubatum"; the same dictionary has the word "incubatio" (in the sense of brooding or hatching eggs), so I don't see a need to avoid the "incuba-" spelling. That being so, we can accept "incubatrix" from Del Col (cited far above): we were silly to overlook this originally, the rest of the discussion is a bit of a waste of time. Ah well, one lives and learns. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:08, 29 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Mihi placet incubatrix, simplex est et fontem habet. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 10:01, 29 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Mihi quoque. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:10, 29 Iunii 2023 (UTC)

Pagina et formula motae sunt. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:47, 29 Iunii 2023 (UTC)