Disputatio:Bibliotheca Publica Novi Eboraci
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System = ???[fontem recensere]
Re: "ratio doesn't work. Not sure if this [institutio] does either." For English system, Cassell's (1968) gives formula, ratio, disciplina, artificium, instituta, praecepta (the last specifically meaning 'rules'), Traupman (2007) gives only ratio, with disciplina specifically in philosophy. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:52, 17 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- How about not strictly a system but a network…: “rete (bibliothecarum ...)”? --Grufo (disputatio) 13:21, 17 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- "System" here means a group of institutions (libraries in this case) under the same overall government or organization. No, "Ratio" can scarcely be stretched to mean that. Cassell's may have had this usage in mind with "instituta" -- or maybe not, who knows? I think "rete" is good, and in fact English "network" is often used in this precise sense, so even an English-speaking Latinist should find the term easy to understand. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:09, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, changed it to rete. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:29, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- Rete is 'net'; 'network' is opus reticulatum. Whether the text favors systema or opus retiulatum or something else, we're dealing with a transferred sense here, and we should be clear as to what is being transferred. The idea that an institution can be a "net of libraries" is rather odd. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:10, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- “The idea that an institution can be a "net of libraries" is rather odd”: But it is not anymore an institutio, it is just a rete. As for the idea of a networking, assuming both options are modern, I don't know about Cicero, but to me this delivers the idea of interconnection less than this… So I would say either rete or reticulum instead of opus reticulatum. Lewis & Short show that reticulum could be already used metaforically (e.g. to describe the intestine, if I got it right), so I guess we can do the same with rete? For network Morgan mentions reticulatio (cfr. “netting, network” apud Morgan, Davidem (2013). Lexicon Anglum et Latinum. Paulopolis: Darcy Carvalho. p. 516 [PDF]). --Grufo (disputatio) 16:37, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- People will soon be saying that the Systema solare should rightly be the Rete solare. LOL. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:30, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- That risk would be identical to the risk for English to use “network” or “net” for the solar system (zero risk) – even though a system of libraries can also be called a network of libraries in the same language. French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, have always used a word derived from rete for network, and never incurred the risk of using that word for the solar system. The French version of this page is clearly in part derived from English Wikipedia, and yet they translated “system” with “réseau”:
- La New York Public Library (NYPL); Bibliothèque publique de New York) est un réseau de bibliothèques publiques situé dans la ville de New York. Avec près de 53 millions de documents, c'est la deuxième plus grande bibliothèque publique des États-Unis, derrière la Bibliothèque du Congrès.
- --Grufo (disputatio) 00:04, 19 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- It was a joke. :) ¶ Nevertheless, why would Cicero want to use a modern—indeed, extremely recent—metaphor based on the idea of a network (opus reticulatum) instead of a familiar word for a collection or a group (caterva, circulus, congeries, dispositio, globus), especially attached to a participle showing that it's not a random collection but something well organized (compositus, constitutus, ordinatus, temperatus)? Maybe a definition like est rite ordinata bibliothecarum publicarum congeries would satisfy his sensibilities. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:29, 19 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- If we find a better word of course we should use that word. The problem I see here is that some of these words inherently remind of chaos (caterva, congeries) and so even if we add an adjective it will sound like “a well-ordered mess”. Others imply human bodies in a circle and are themselves metaphors not so different from their modern translations into Western languages (circulus, globus). As for dispositio, I think we too often forget that words that end in -tio, -tionis in Latin retain their status of nomina actionis much more than in modern languages, and so dispositio will be the action of disposing (e.g. the words in the right order in the case of Cicero's speeches) much more than a “disposition”. It's a subtle difference, but it is often there. I see the same problem in Morgan's neologism reticulatio (taken from Vaczy, Lex. Bot. Polyglottum, 1980), which I read as “the act of reticulating” – but I believe Morgan correctly meant exactly that, which is why he translates it as “netting”; in my opinion a better neologism for “the effect of reticulating” (i.e. a “reticulate”) would be either *reticulatus (-us, m.) or *reticulatum (-i, n.). Other words that we could use are ordo (biblithecarum) and classis (biblithecarum), but somehow also these don't convince me too much, because they suggest that the libraries do have something in common but do not necessarily work together. So at the moment rete remains the most convincing word for me. --Grufo (disputatio) 16:36, 19 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- It was a joke. :) ¶ Nevertheless, why would Cicero want to use a modern—indeed, extremely recent—metaphor based on the idea of a network (opus reticulatum) instead of a familiar word for a collection or a group (caterva, circulus, congeries, dispositio, globus), especially attached to a participle showing that it's not a random collection but something well organized (compositus, constitutus, ordinatus, temperatus)? Maybe a definition like est rite ordinata bibliothecarum publicarum congeries would satisfy his sensibilities. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:29, 19 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- People will soon be saying that the Systema solare should rightly be the Rete solare. LOL. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:30, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- “The idea that an institution can be a "net of libraries" is rather odd”: But it is not anymore an institutio, it is just a rete. As for the idea of a networking, assuming both options are modern, I don't know about Cicero, but to me this delivers the idea of interconnection less than this… So I would say either rete or reticulum instead of opus reticulatum. Lewis & Short show that reticulum could be already used metaforically (e.g. to describe the intestine, if I got it right), so I guess we can do the same with rete? For network Morgan mentions reticulatio (cfr. “netting, network” apud Morgan, Davidem (2013). Lexicon Anglum et Latinum. Paulopolis: Darcy Carvalho. p. 516 [PDF]). --Grufo (disputatio) 16:37, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- Rete is 'net'; 'network' is opus reticulatum. Whether the text favors systema or opus retiulatum or something else, we're dealing with a transferred sense here, and we should be clear as to what is being transferred. The idea that an institution can be a "net of libraries" is rather odd. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:10, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, changed it to rete. --Grufo (disputatio) 15:29, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)
- "System" here means a group of institutions (libraries in this case) under the same overall government or organization. No, "Ratio" can scarcely be stretched to mean that. Cassell's may have had this usage in mind with "instituta" -- or maybe not, who knows? I think "rete" is good, and in fact English "network" is often used in this precise sense, so even an English-speaking Latinist should find the term easy to understand. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:09, 18 Septembris 2023 (UTC)