Disputatio:Cantabrigia Massachusettensium

"Cantabrigia non Anglica" - we can probably come up with a better name than that. The Romans frequently had to deal with multiple cities of the same name - Caesarea, Isca, Lugdunum and so on. They usually distinguished them either by the name of a people in the genitive plural - Cantabrigia Americanorum/Bostoniensium/Massachusettanorum, or sometimes by some other distinguishing characteristic - Cantabrigia Maritima (sort of ), Cantabrigia Harvardiana, Cantabrigia apud (Whatever-the-name-of-that-river-is). -Usor:Iustinus

Exemplum mihi Clemens non Papa (auctor musicalis aetatis mediae) erat. Sed certe 'Cantabrigia iuxta flumen Carolanum' melius scribitur.Doops 21:14 apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Optime! Mihi multo melius nunc videtur. Nesciebam autem de nomine sat ridiculum ac iucundum quod est Clemens non Papa. Fortasse velles ipse de illo symbolen scribere?

On the Cantabrigia question, a quick look at the way the word is used by Americans in Latin suggests to me that they would typically not append anything (while I would concede a European probably would, just as we typically do in British English). Here, in the Harvard graduates' magazine, or in this catalogue of the Library of Massachusets. Thus I would tend to think that Cantabrigia is the normal, local formulation of the name, while Cantabrigia Massachusettensium would be the way those of us outside of the US might refer to it, to distinguish from the UK Cantabrigia. I don't think the page needs to move, but the page might more clearly state the 'normal' or local usage as Cantabrigia and in my view that would also be the natural name and default Wikidata value. --JimKillock (disputatio) 18:35, 2 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The first words of Harvard PhD diplomas are (in all caps) VNIVERSITAS HARVARDIANA CANTABRIGIAE IN REPVBLICA MASSACHVSETTENSIVM. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:22, 2 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, literally, something like "The Univerity of Harvard, of / at / in Cambridge, in the republic of Massechusets?" I'm not sure that is a contradiction, perhaps it supports what I am saying; anyway, clearly Cambridge is in Massachussets :) – I just don't think the "normal" or ordinary form of the name always would have this attached by default, these tend to be the shortest and most convenient, and there seems to plenty of evidence that it is used that way. (We even use it ourselves, for instance Universitas Harvardiana Cantabrigiae in re publica Massachusettensium est … Schola Divinitatis Harvardiana est una ex constituentibus Universitatis Harvardianae scholis, Cantabrigiae in Civitatibus Foederatis

To be clear I am not asking to move the page (the page name makes sense) but to alter the value in Wikidata. Other wise we get things like Cantabrigia Massachusettensium, Massachusetta rolling out of programmatic assemblages. --JimKillock (disputatio) 23:34, 2 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's trying to say 'at Cambridge in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts'. Because respublica has an obvious English reflex (republic), it's easy to lose sight of the larger sense of the word: 'the state' (not the narrower sense of a particular form of government). One wonders whether respublica wouldn't have become the ordinary term for each of the US states if only a few Latinists long ago hadn't opted for civitas and therefore Civitates Foederatae. Australia is officially the Commonwealth of Australia, and Vicipaedia used to describe it as such, deploying the word respublica (with a published attestation from an Australian expert; see footnote 1), but that confused somebody ignorant of the full meaning of the Latin term, and the phrasing got changed. ¶ If Wikidata wants a single word (with no disambiguation), Cantabrigia all by itself would seem to be the way to go. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:56, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I changed that on Wikidata. — Well, if we actually get "Cantabrigia Massachusettensium, Massachusetta" somewhere, then I don't mind "Cantabrigia" on Wikidata. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:40, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To Jim and Demetrius: Would we get that? Is there a programmatic assemblage somewhere that has been told it must add a higher administrative unit, after a comma, after every name of a city, in every language? How would it choose Massachusetts over Midddlesex County or USA? What would it do in Thai or Sanskrit in which there are no commas?

For full disclosure, I started all this off by giving this name to Jim. It came to my mind as an example of a case in which the English name can't be distinctive unless you add a disambiguating term after punctuation (in American English usage the punctuation is a comma) but the Latin name can be distinctive. I didn't look at the page before giving the example, and I see that it was only at the same moment that Demetrius moved the page to this name!

I don't mind what we choose, but it must be accepted as a fact that names can be distinctive in some languages while not being distinctive in others: programmatic assemblages that don't know this will sometimes produce redundant results. The other example I gave to Jim is complementary: Saintes, the French place name, is possibly distinctive, except that it coincidentally means "female saints", but Mediolanum -- the corresponding Latin name -- is far from distinctive unless you call it Mediolanum Santonum, which the Romans (like the Harvardians above) often did. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:16, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally the translations above oversimplify the grammar a tiny bit. "Massachusettensium" is a genitive plural, meaning "of the Massachusetts [plural]". This is literally accurate and fits beautifully because the state bears the name of the people who once lived there: they were the Massachusetts. And it suits the general Latin habit with such place names. "Santonum" is also a genitive plural, "of the Santones", the Celtic people who became a civitas of the Roman Empire. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:53, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Talking about the use of these labels on maps: In the Cantabrigia case, yes, certainly, the shorter name works better on a map. The map will probably show the name "Massachusetta" already, so why repeat it? In the Saintes case, the longer form works better, because the tribal name, being obsolete, won't appear on the map. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:37, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Consentio :) --JimKillock (disputatio) 17:00, 3 Septembris 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quo modo dicere...[fontem recensere]

Does anyone know how to say program, in the sense of radio program? Sinister Petrus 16:41, 24 Maii 2006 (UTC)[reply]