Disputatio Categoriae:Operae

To be getting on with[fontem recensere]

Since no one has suggested a solution to the cross-classification at Categoria:Opera, I have created this category temporarily for the works of art called "operas" in many modern languages. That leaves "Categoria:Opera" for en:Category:Creative works. I have no strong view on the final terminology, but this will help meanwhile. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:30, 10 Aprilis 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I always regarded this Categoria:Operae, which I created, as a mere stopgap because no one had thought of a better solution. Well, the principal page on this subject has now been moved to Melodrama (musica). If no one objects, this category should be moved similarly, I guess to Categoria:Melodramata. Does anyone object, or want to propose a different answer? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:53, 24 Februarii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sine dubio movendum est, sed permultae paginae mutandae sunt... Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 21:34, 31 Octobris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recte dicis, sed UVbot has res facere potest (si vult!) Bene. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:27, 1 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ergo rogemus UV ut hanc disputationem animadvertat.

Nec subcategoriae negligendae sunt:

1) Stipulae / Compositores / Genera operarum‎ => Stipulae / Compositores / Genera melodramatum‎;

2) Operae genere digestae‎ / in Iberia sitae‎ / in mythologia Graeco-Romana conditae‎ => Melodramata ... digesta / sita / condita

3) Operae pastorales‎ => Melodramata pastoralia

(Opera seria et opera buffa maneant, ut locutiones Italianae, quibus modo citationis utimur)

4) Terminologia operatica‎ => Terminologia melodramatica

5) Opera lyrica‎ est categoria, cuius paginae genus ipsum, de quo loquimur, nec operam nec melodrama, sed opus lyricum nominant; non subcategoria vera est, sed categoriae principali contribuenda est (opera lyrica => Melodramata).

Vocabulum melodrama ipsum vitiis non caret (in lingua Latina melodrama genus musicae ecclesiasticae nunc paene oblitum quondam significabat, non genus theatri saecularis; in linguis hodiernis alium sensum omnibus bene notum habet), sed opera Italiana in textu Latino omnino impossibilis et intolerabilis est; nam cum nom./acc. pl. de opus miscetur. Mihi drama melicum placet, sed et melodrama non male est, et servemus id, ne sine fine renominemus. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 17:08, 1 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Assentior, sed duas/tres dies exspectemus ne quis aliud nomen proponat. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:52, 1 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(1) "Melodrama" is, and has always been, inappropriate, because a melodrama is "a dramatic work wherein the plot, which is typically sensational and designed to appeal strongly to the emotions, takes precedence over detailed characterization" (Wikipedia), and that's not the same thing as an opera. The (Italian) phrase for what we in English call opera, found in the first printed example still performed, was favola in musica. That might be a helpful clue. (2) The Latin word opera is of course a singular noun usually glossed as 'work', and it's identical with the Italian word for the musical kind of work. A prestigious kind of opera in the eighteenth century was opera seria, of which the plural is opere serie, which can easily be retrofitted to Latin operae seriae (for those like to make back-formations). (3) If "opera" is to be Latinized as melodrama, how is "melodrama" going to be Latinized? Far from being operas, some melodramas are scored for spoken and/or sung voice(s) and piano; for example: this one. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:39, 1 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Melodrama sensu hodierno, plot appealing to the emotions, nunc in Vicipaedia Fabula melodramatica est. Et haec Latina 1, 2, 3, 4 non de emotional plot (nec de operibus Wagner et Mozart, sed propius illis). Melodrama et Lexicon Morganianum dat, et del Col (nam et drama melicum ambo).

Opera seria aut servatur, ut terminus technicus Italicus et non declinatur, aut vertitur (melodrama serium/grave, drama melicum serium/grave etc.). Timeo talium sententiarum possibilitatem, ut "Mozart, cum operae suae operam daret, ..." aut "...operum a Mozart compositorum opera..." (ultimum singulare aut plurale est?) Praecipue incommodum est, cum in musica opera (n. pl.) iam terminus technicus inevitabilis sit (omnia opera, a compositore scripta, quae numerantur, "op. 114" etc.).

Favola in musica origo est fabulae modulatae , quam Ioannes del Col cum allis locutionibus dat et fabulae (quae cantatur) (Ebbe Viborg). Fabula modulata melior, quam opera, est, sed 1) fabula Latina et sine hoc sensu nimis multos sensus habet 2) idem vitium habet, quod et drama melicum (quod ipse elegissem) et omnia nomina bina: quando genus huius nominare voluerimus, definitio iam tribus vocabulis erit, — fabula modulata pastoralis etc. (nec etiam operettam disputavimus...); sed drama melicum primo horum vitiorum caret, melodrama autem ambobus caret, fontes varios habet et iamdiu in pagina est. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 23:44, 1 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

UVbot is ready to move categories once consensus has been reached. Please continue the discussion here on this page, and when we have a consensus, please list the individual categories, each with old and new name, on Vicipaedia:Automata/Petitiones de categoriis movendis. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 18:35, 5 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until multiple authors in recent Latin publications (outside Vicipaedia) settle on suitable terms, I doubt that consensus can be reached here. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:36, 5 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Et donec hoc fiet, etiam subcategoriam falsam Opera lyrica cum categoria principali contribuere non potuerimus. Nec separare categorias, ubi opera est vocabulum Italianum (ut opera buffa et opera seria), ab iis, ubi opera est vocabulum Latinum fictum (operae .. digestae etc.), nec ab iis, ubi opera est nom. pl. de opus (opera lyrica). Talem farraginem conservabimus. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 22:45, 5 Novembris 2020 (UTC)[reply]