Disputatio:Rhodensis Insula
Providence Plantations[fontem recensere]
How should we translate the full name of the colony and later state, "(Colony of) Rhode Island and Providence Plantations"? Plantations here means "colony", not a tree plantation or a tobacco plantation. Unless there's an attested use of plantationes in this sense, I'm thinking it should be "Colonia Rhodensis Insulae et Providentiae". I thought the Brown diploma might have the full name, but it just has "Universitas Brunensis Providentiae in Rhodensis Insula Republica". Either way, arbusta, which I found on Civitates Foederatae Americae, is clearly wrong. Lesgles (disputatio) 20:24, 1 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- Are the plantationes the plantings (deductiones) of the colony? See: Plantationes Insulae Providentiae in America. Or is that referring to the Providence Island colony? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:22, 1 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that refers to the colony in the Caribbean (which I didn't know about, interesting!), and to its agricultural plantations. In "Providence Plantations" we have the OED sense 4a.: "A settlement in a conquered or dominated country; a colony. Also in extended use. Now hist. Chiefly with reference to the colonies founded in North America and on the forfeited lands in Ireland in the 16th-17th centuries; also with reference to the ancient colonies of Greece, etc." Deductiones is possible, but that seems to refer more to the process of colonizing and leading away rather than the settlement as a place. Lesgles (disputatio) 22:36, 1 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that two words briefly coexisted in English in roughly the same sense ("colony" and "plantation") doesn't mean we can necessarily find two appropriate words in Latin, but it would be very nice if we could. Well, certainly the Latin verb, deducere, corresponds quite neatly with the connotations of "plantation". For "deductio" one of the glosses in Lewis & Short is "a ... transplanting of colonies". It is an action noun; but then, so was "plantation". It's pretty good, I think. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:30, 2 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- Well that's two authoritative votes in my book, so I'll go ahead and put in deductio. Lesgles (disputatio) 17:05, 2 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that two words briefly coexisted in English in roughly the same sense ("colony" and "plantation") doesn't mean we can necessarily find two appropriate words in Latin, but it would be very nice if we could. Well, certainly the Latin verb, deducere, corresponds quite neatly with the connotations of "plantation". For "deductio" one of the glosses in Lewis & Short is "a ... transplanting of colonies". It is an action noun; but then, so was "plantation". It's pretty good, I think. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:30, 2 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that refers to the colony in the Caribbean (which I didn't know about, interesting!), and to its agricultural plantations. In "Providence Plantations" we have the OED sense 4a.: "A settlement in a conquered or dominated country; a colony. Also in extended use. Now hist. Chiefly with reference to the colonies founded in North America and on the forfeited lands in Ireland in the 16th-17th centuries; also with reference to the ancient colonies of Greece, etc." Deductiones is possible, but that seems to refer more to the process of colonizing and leading away rather than the settlement as a place. Lesgles (disputatio) 22:36, 1 Novembris 2013 (UTC)
"Rhodensis" Insula is not correct[fontem recensere]
Rename the state, and the Vicipedia article, Rhode-Insula. Rhodensis Insula is used here for Rhode Island, but this surely isn't right. Rhodensis Insula = would mean Rhodian Island, but the state is not that; it's Rhode Island. Second, Rhodensis isn't even the Latin adjective for Rhodian (it means only a person from Rhodes), the adjective "Rhodian" in Latin is Rhodius. Cf. the Oxford Latin Dictionary, as well as https://logeion.uchicago.edu/Rhodenses and https://logeion.uchicago.edu/Rhodius. We could use simply Rhodos, which is probably the most correct because it is "Isle of Rhodes" and surely reflects the intent of the original namers of Rhode Island, but simplest would be just plain Rhode-Insula. Postmodernus (disputatio) 17:19, 11 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- It's the custom in Vicipaedia to accept Latin words already attested in reputable nonwikipedian sources, whether in print or in manuscript. (The usually cited exhortation is "Noli fingere!") Rhodensis in the name of the state has been around since 1847 at the latest. Further, if memory serves, Rhodensis Insula appears in Traupman's textbook of conversational Latin. That said, the colony formally named Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was in existence as far back 1644, when Latin was widely in use among the learned, and so an alternate seventeenth-century Latin term for it might well exist. If you find such an attestation, feel free to strengthen the article by adding it in, with a footnote pointing to the source! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:09, 11 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- Additionally, modern taxonomy provides attestations. A pertinent one here is the binomen Cicindela hirticollis subspecies rhodensis, the Rhode Island hairy-necked tiger beetle. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:23, 11 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for a thoughtful answer--I'm glad people are thinking about this stuff. Casual Googling indeed turns up several 17th and 18th century instances of "Rhodia Insula," "Insula Rhodia" and their inflected forms. I shall surely update the article tomorrow. Postmodernus (disputatio) 01:24, 12 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, but be sure they refer to Rhode Island (in New England), not to the island of Rhodes (in the Mediterranean), as only the former is pertinent here—because the name of the state apparently has nothing to do with the latter. According to the government of Rhode Island, citing a book on the subject of US state names, "This state was named by Dutch explorer Adrian Block. He named it "Roodt Eylandt" meaning "red island" in reference to the red clay that lined the shore. The name was later anglicized when the region came under British rule." If this is true, you might want to be looking for Insula Rubra (not to be confused with Insula Rubra)! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 03:10, 12 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for a thoughtful answer--I'm glad people are thinking about this stuff. Casual Googling indeed turns up several 17th and 18th century instances of "Rhodia Insula," "Insula Rhodia" and their inflected forms. I shall surely update the article tomorrow. Postmodernus (disputatio) 01:24, 12 Iulii 2021 (UTC)
- Additionally, modern taxonomy provides attestations. A pertinent one here is the binomen Cicindela hirticollis subspecies rhodensis, the Rhode Island hairy-necked tiger beetle. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:23, 11 Iulii 2021 (UTC)