Disputatio:Mors voluntaria religione suasa

"Suicidium cultum" 'cultivated suicide'? I'm afraid to say that we have to come up with a better term. Neander (disputatio) 14:58, 7 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Suicidium rituale rem melius explicare videtur. Neander (disputatio) 15:21, 7 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Cassell's: "ritual, adj., render by subst." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 22:19, 7 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Suicidium abest in lexicone meo. Sed habet "mortem sibi consciscere", "manus sibi aferre", "occumbere necem voluntariam", "se ipsim vita privare", "a vita dsciscere" et "mortem sibi parere"... est Suicidium barbarismum vel neologismum?--Xaverius 23:25, 7 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Certe est neologismum inlatum in 1645–55.Jondel (disputatio) 23:47, 7 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Cassell's: "suicide, mors voluntaria." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:20, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Optime! Nunc necessita est verbum quod significat 'cult'(sectaria?)Jondel (disputatio) 23:32, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Ergo 'ritual suicide' = mors voluntaria rite effecta ? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 00:32, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Ne obliviscamur,obiter etiam sententiam "mass" (caterva aut collectiva?). Adeo quod vobis videtur mors voluntaria caterva aut collectiva (apud alia)? Etiam, non necessite est, mihi, 'rituale'. Seppuko ex Samurai est rituale et non est collectiva quam singulare.Jondel (disputatio) 00:53, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean 'mass ritual suicide'? Fortasse mors voluntaria sibi rite a multis una conscita 'voluntary death brought upon themselves with proper ceremonies by many together' ? But isn't that cumbersome! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 02:14, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Yes, 'mass ritual suicide', but now no need for the word 'mass'.Jondel (disputatio) 05:31, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Modus voluntarius mortem propriam sibi conciscendi in ritu communale ulteriore causa?--Xaverius 22:52, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of Mass ritual suicide, but I guess there is no need for 'mass' sorry(and ritual?). Velim suadere 'Mors voluntaria sectaria'. Talis necessita est 'ritu/ritualis/ceremonia' etc? Do we really need ritual or ceremony as part of the lemma?Jondel (disputatio) 23:04, 8 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Mors voluntaria is the classical word for 'suicide', and suicidium is a neologism (cf. David Morgan's lexicon). Yet, I'd not entirely rule out the use of suicidium (despite its barbarian morphology) as a cultural loan from Romance languages, when it comes to expressing phrases in which mors voluntaria might be (somewhat) cumbersome. For example, if we try to say "forced suicide" by forging a Latin expression out of mors voluntaria, the result might be close to an oxymoron. While mors voluntaria focusses on the psychological (-motivatory) side of this lamentable act, suicidium rather refers to the "technical" side. We might need both aspects in order to be able to express in Latin the whole spectre of life. Of course, I have nothing in principle against using mors voluntaria in the present case. Neander (disputatio) 17:40, 9 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Why should we have a problem with mors voluntaria for a suicide that's coerced? One still has a choice: when ordered to commit suicide, Rommel chose to do so, but Röhm chose not to (and had to be shot). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:01, 11 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

¶ On the other hand, it's true that we're dealing with collective ritual suicide here, and so the title may need precisation. In this, the Spanish title Suicidio colectivo ritual suggests Mors voluntaria collectiva ritualis, or less cumbersomely Suicidium collectivum rituale. Don't be afraid of the adjective ritualis. It's morphologically well-formed and, besides, attested in Cicero (Div. 1.72). But when it comes to "mors voluntaria sectaria", this expression may suggest something like 'suicide by castration', given Plautus, Capt. 820 (vervex sectarius 'gelded wether'). Neander (disputatio) 17:40, 9 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, please, lets be precise.Jondel (disputatio) 00:49, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I guess, the collective, mass or ritualis here refer to 'cult' (?) As an alternative, could we use haeresia?I indeed refered to the Spanish wiki when I was thinking mass ritual suicide. Sectaria only suggests castration; but we could we use something with the root of 'secta' in the appropriate context of cult? Jondel (disputatio) 00:49, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Cumbersome as it is, at least, 'mors voluntaria' is dictionary-standard. If a foreigner to your country was using the 'dictionary-textbook' standard language of your language he would be well understood and supported (by academics) despite possible ridicule by your fellow men. Your fellow men would think it funny and quaint but they would also say "Well he is a foreigner, it is ok besides, it makes it easier to communicate". Besides who are we really to not use the standard? Other Latinists would immediately recognize it, and that is more important even if they will admit it is cumbersome and awkward. This is also a an encyclopedia, colloquialism might not be preferable(it can be explicitly suggested though for clarity). I confess though that I myself am forced to used neologism.Jondel (disputatio) 00:49, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, you earlier cited behoove as an example of speech that would sound peculiar. My mother, a native speaker of English, was quite fond of it. The word eschew sounds like a sneeze, but we should let authors use it if they want to (and if it fits the context), since any educated speaker of the language would understand it. Words are weird! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:07, 11 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Whilst mine self be laboring amongst them Mexicans in ye days of yore and speaketh them in the manner of the English tongue, to mine ears verily be hearing them olden words "whilst, whither, hither, tither". T'was of mine aquiantance in the Land of the Japans whilst I speaketh in the manner of the tongue of books and not of the vernacular thereof, didst mine self be ye object of ridicule thereof.(what is IIRC?)Jondel (disputatio) 04:40, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I occasionally eschew, especially if I have previously abjured. On this side of the Atlantic I don't think anything has ever behooved me (the OED has two 20th century citations for "behoove", both from US authors). But yes, as a reader one understands these words even if one has never used them. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:38, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Cumbersomeness is to be expected between languages because concepts and culture which are taken for granted in one are not readily understood in the other. You have to work around them. Jondel (disputatio) 01:14, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Quaeso, what does ritualis mean? The English wiki doesn't seem to require ritual (nor ceremony). It is non sequitur that because it is in the Spanish wiki that we need to include it here. The English wiki seems to suggest that members also truly volunteer of their own individual will to commit suicide(see Rodriguez of The Family/Children of God) without any ritual because they could not take the psychological pressure or because of the cult (see Filippians) encouraged it. (Many of course are forced to 'volunteer' an oxymoron/contradiction as well as allow themselves to be murdered by fellow members. 'Forced -volunteering' also occurs a lot in the military, by the way. )Jondel (disputatio) 00:49, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

How about '''Mors voluntaria haeresia''' (licet Suicidium colectiva vel Suicidium ab sectae ) est mors....(etc)? Also '''Mors voluntaria haerestica'''? Jondel (disputatio) 02:21, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

We can of course resolve the voluntaria -oxymoron issue by explicitly mentioning, it, eg, "non est semper voluntaria sed ab coactu esse potest.....(etc)"Jondel (disputatio) 02:24, 10 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I changed the {{Movenda}} prefix so as to take "Mors voluntaria conlectiva ritualis" as the object of discussion. It's my best shot for the time being. You're obviously right in questioning my argumentum ad oxymoron. There are certain strategies to convert what is basically involuntary into (kind of) voluntary. ¶ On haeresis: Cicero and his coevals used this Greek loan more or less synonymously with secta 'philosophical persuasion'. This might work, were it not for the fact that the adjective haereticus entered the language as a Christian fighting word. Although haereticus is an obvious derivative of haeresis, their cultural historial profiles do not coincide. Cicero's haeresis is not the same as Tertullian's haeresis 'heresy', and it's precisely the Tertullian acceptation the adjective haereticus is a derivative of. So, "mors voluntaria haeretica" would mean 'heretic suicide'. In Cassell's, you'll find only haeresis with the Ciceronian acceptation, and the adjective is lacking. ¶ I'm not sure that I understand your misgivings about the adjective ritualis. You say: " It is non sequitur that because it is in the Spanish wiki that we need to include it here." Do you mean that the Spanish title is a misnomer? If it's ok, I don't see why ritualis wouldn't work in Latin as well. Before committing the act of suicide, the members of Heaven's Gate drank lemon juice in order to attain ritual purity. This was certainly a ritual rather than a caerimonia, which typically has reference to some deity. Neander (disputatio) 08:39, 11 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Yes a misnomer. We do not need to include colectiva(or whatever word) just because (=non sequiter=not just because) it is used in the Spanish wiki(we are a different wiki, and they could be wrong)Jondel (disputatio) 04:45, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Now that the scope of the article is becoming clear, one has to ask whether a word for ritual is needed after all: the English term is cult suicide, and since (almost?) all cults use rituals, the concept of rituality may already be inherent in the term cult suicide. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:01, 11 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Rituals are indeed are part of cults. Im sure that article meant Suicide by ritual (How about suicide by the individual because of Psychological pressure, because of cult activities?)Jondel (disputatio) 05:20, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

What you're saying certainly holds for English. Would it hold for Spanish as well? I'm asking this, because the Spanish wiki uses the allegedly redundant ritual as well. I don't know how to say it in Spanish using the word culto, nor do I know how to express it in decent Latin by means of the word cultus. ¶ But wait, there's one expedient that comes to my mind: mors voluntaria cultualis. Notice, though, that cultualis is a word that you don't find in Cassell's. :–) Neander (disputatio) 17:20, 11 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Quaeso, optime! Do we have a consensus then(mors voluntaria cultualis)? :] Please volunteer to say yes!Jondel (disputatio) 04:37, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Any competent Latinist can derive cultualis from cultus on the model of actu-alis, casu-alis, manu-alis, sexu-alis, victu-alis, etc. No big deal. But the problem is that we're not supposed to create neologisms (cf. the principle of "noli fingere"), at least not in titles. You have to ask what other Vicipaedians think. Personally, I'd be interested to hear what Iacobus thinks, given the fact that Cassell's seems play a prominent role in his pro's and con's. Neander (disputatio) 09:25, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Cassell's, the product of several editors working over a period longer than a century, is intended to be a resource in "the writing of Latin prose in the manner of Cicero, Caesar[,] or Livy," following the "principle that 'classical' Latin, the language of what we still consider the best period," is a matter of "prime concern." When another source provides a classical attestation of a word not in Cassell's, it's reasonable for us to suspect that the editors of Cassell's were aware of it but didn't recommend it. Perhaps it was a one-off (hapax legomenon), a coinage that no other native speaker of Latin accepted. Or perhaps it was a term whose sense has changed so much that its use is problematic, as it would be if we wrote in English He prevented me meaning 'He arrived ahead of me' ('prevent' < praevenire). The most famous survival of that usage is in the Book of Common Prayer, regularly in use in the United States until the last few decades, which has a collect that begins (italics added) "Lord, we pray thee that thy grace may always prevent and follow us, and make us continually to be given to all good works"; for which the current edition has "O LORD, may your grace always come ahead of us, follow after us, and make us ever ready to give ourselves to all good works." (Note the other modernizations: may your grace for we pray thee that thy grace may, and ever ready for continually, and to give ourselves to for to be given to.) In the English-to-Latin section, Cassell's usually omits English words that do not overlap closely with Latin words: "Words like 'madhouse', because they correspond to no genuine Roman idea or institution, have been omitted" (p. ix). An implication of this policy is that, when a desired word is found to be missing from the English section, the writer should consider whether any Latin word might have a one-to-one semantic correspondence with it. Cult is one such word: it's absent from the English-to-Latin section; but in the Latin-to-English section, it's shown to mean 'tilling, cultivation, tending, care, culture, training, education, reverence, respectful treatment, refinement'—none of which concepts exactly translates the modern English meaning of cult. This disparity reminds us that not only sense, but also grammar, don't always coincide: for the modern English noun cult, perhaps the living Cicero's first synonymous thought would be something like the phrase homines qui, rather than the noun religio. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:46, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

My impression from the quotations from Cassell's that I happen to have seen is that its English vocabulary was fixed 100 years ago (or more). If indeed work went into it for a period "longer than a century", I'd be curious to know when that period began and ended!

I'm not very familiar with this modern English sense of "cult" -- encountering it in newspapers I had dismissed it as merely a term used by opponents for a religious group they disapproved of. If I were right there, we Vicipaedians shouldn't try to find a Latin equivalent for it because using such a term would betray POV. And I quite agree with Iacobus's last comments about how Cicero might approach the question. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:59, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I am not looking at the dictionary but of what I understand; A cult is a

• new religion(within the last last century, 1900 up) religous Group (thus Jihads are not)
• whose practises are controversial or unacceptable, typically immoral extreme sex, extortion both from the members and coercing member to extort from outsiders, psychological control, violence(physically and psychologically).
• having a cultic leader who is the life or personifies the cult.Typicaly but not always, when absent or dies, the cult disappears.
• Extreme intolerance of other beliefs and avoidance to exposure to them.
• Of course the wild beliefs (UFOs coming to save etc)(but this is ok as long as they are not harmful).Some beliefs however are not compatible with society's laws and practices like polygamy and not accepting healthy blood and non acceptance of medical help even if it kills the sick person.(seppuku not acceptable in the west was acceptable in Japanese society, thus not a cultic Jondel (disputatio) 00:40, 13 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Notice that here you're gleaning from your impressions about the meaaning(s) of the English word cult. But this doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the meaning and use of the Latin word cultus, which lacks all those negative connotations you're bringing forward. Neander (disputatio) 13:33, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

The article was meant to be a latin translation of (Modern) en:Cult suicide. --Jondel (disputatio) 13:44, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but you can't do the translation by replacing a Latinate English word with a similarly sounding Latin word. Though the letter-by-letter correspondences may be transparent enough, semantic profiles may differ too much. Neander (disputatio) 14:11, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Si variis de causis nec mors voluntaria cultualis nec mors voluntaria conlectiva ritualis satisfaciunt, ego arma pono. Ut aiunt: Optimum est inimicum bono. :-) Neander (disputatio) 20:20, 13 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Quaeso, nisi graves /gravetis, ponamus 'mors voluntaria cultualis ', amabo te/vobis. Gratias tibi/vobis ago. :D Jondel (disputatio) 23:07, 13 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I see no benefit in distinguishing religion pre-1900 from cult post-1900; it's just a way of saying "people are getting more credulous" (which of course may be true). If my native language insists on that distinction, I abjure my native language. All right, then, sometimes religions persuade their believers to kill themselves or to invite death. We can call our article about the subject "Mors religione suasa". Would that suit the case? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:05, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Independently, I had come up with superstitio in my mind (thereby entering the POV-driven religio vs superstitio controversy). Now, I think Andrew's proposal is the very best one, so far. It's true that sometimes religions (or political persuasions) get their believers to kill themselves (or others). Mors religione suasa rules out political persuasions, but does it rule out killing others? This may be a bit nitpickerish, but I'm asking myself whether it might be advisable to add: Mors voluntaria religione suasa (if the more compact Suicidium religione suasum is out of the question). Neander (disputatio) 18:28, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Yes, after writing the above I reflected on that same point and I agree that adding "voluntaria" would make my version clearer. In any case "suicidium" is acceptable as far as I'm concerned. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:37, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Unless Mors voluntaria secta fanatica(I was about to suggest--too temple associated?), is better, Mors voluntaria religione suasa would be ok.Jondel (disputatio) 23:09, 14 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid that "...secta fanatica" is difficult to parse (and maybe POV). I'm sure that we've now reached a decent consensus, and so I moved the page accordingly. Thank you all for an extremely interesting discussion! Neander (disputatio) 00:11, 15 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Same here, your opinions and participation is highly appreciated, at least we didn't have to resort to Jihads :p ! Jondel (disputatio) 00:38, 15 Novembris 2012 (UTC)

Ritual

I hope we are all comfortable with "mors voluntaria cultualis" despite not being in Cassels.Just some more misgivings of Ritual. I agree that the case of Heaven's Gate is typical and is a ritual case.However:

• Psychology:The suicides could be caused by psychological pressure, the members could only escape by death with out any provocation on the part of the cult. As in the case of Rodrigues, Children of God-The Family.(Last example in the wiki). No ritual.
• In the Spanish wiki, the closest thing to a ritual was the banquet (with 3 bulls-toros)in the "Movimiento de restauración de los diez mandamientos de Dios". The Heidi case doesn't mention a ritual but I accept there probably was .Jondel (disputatio) 05:00, 12 Novembris 2012 (UTC)