Disputatio:Iraca

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Disputatio:Iraquia[fontem recensere]

This so should be Irācum, but I will never, ever find a locus for that :) --Iustinus 06:53, 5 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

[1][2]Mucius Tever 13:49, 5 Iulii 2010 (UTC)
Holy #($*! Thanks, Myces. Why didn't I just google to begin with? OK, now that we have attestations, surely no one objects? Do I really need to explain why Iraquia is a stupid, stupid name? --Iustinus 14:23, 5 Iulii 2010 (UTC)
Move it. But then there's the categories ... Consult UVbot about them, maybe. See Vicipaedia:Automata/Category move requests. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:31, 5 Iulii 2010 (UTC)
Moved. --UV 22:15, 6 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

Disputatio:Iracum[fontem recensere]

As far as I can see, those loci adduced by Mucius are ambiguous w.r.t. whether the nominative is Iracus or Iracum. I'm afraid that we have to acquiesce in Iraquia which appears to be favoured among Latinists of this day; in addition to the sources cited, I've found these: lexicon Vilborgianum, Nuntii Latini, Ephemeris, lexicon del Col. Neander (disputatio) 05:49, 7 Novembris 2016 (UTC)

I fear you're right -- "Latinists of this day" already includes Iacobus, I've noticed -- but let's just see if Iustinus has a comment before we move it all again :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:35, 7 Novembris 2016 (UTC)

The Accusative Iracum might belong to Iracus (m. or f.?) or to Iracum (n.). The Source with "Eracus, r. (Babylonica, seu Chaldaica) ..." and "Irac, Iracus. Vide Eracus" should prove that there is the Nominative Iracus as well as the Forms Irac, Eracus. However, it maybe doesn't refer to Irak/Iraq in the modern sense (the Country once ruled by Saddam, attacked in just another war of aggression by the USA), but to some Province or something similar.
The old Province is also known as Iraca in Latin, as Iraca, Irack, Iraq, Yerack, Eyrac, Erack, Erach, (at least once: Arach) in English, as Irak, Irack, Erack, Jerack (Fraktur, i.e. Jerack or Ierack?), Iraca (in Antiqua in Fraktur texts, so somewhat non-german) in German. (There might be other forms...) English Iraq (Pl. Iraqs) and german Irak (Pl. Irak) even have a Plural refering to the arabic/arab/arabian and the persian Iraq. (From an older Lexicon from 1735: The persian Iraq was a Province of Persia in which the King's Residence Isapahan was, and the arabic/arab/arabian Iraq was a Province of Turkey near the Euphrates and the Tigris.) Sources for the latin Term:

  • "Yerac, Provincia del Asia. Esta es la antigua Caldea ò Babylonia. Haec Iraca, cae." (books.google.de/books?id=H8Ue5_wopgwC&pg=PA667).
  • "IRACA, ae, Irac, [?] d' Asia." (books.google.de/books?id=3vJ1EmZvWCcC&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=Iraca , a latin-italian Dictionary)
  • Another Source clearly has Iraca too. It should also have Irac ("Irac Persarum", "Irac Arabum", "Irac Babylonica"), while Erac should just be a Transcription. (books.google.de/books?id=uyT43Sw3dT8C&pg=PT4&dq=Iraca)
  • Another Source should have Irac (books.google.de/books?id=l31RAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&dq=Irac).
  • There is one Source for Eraca in German ("In Eraca, das man vormals Chaldea nennte [...]") and maybe in English ("named Iraca, or Eraca [or Eraea?]"), but that Form seems to be rare.

So while it should be Iracus and not Iracum, Iraca could be a better Choice:

  • It clearly is Iraca, -ae, f. and it's also Irac, f., but what Gender does Iracus have? (It could be f. like Aegyptus, but I can't see any Proof for that and especially in New Latin it could also be m.)
  • Iraca can be declined, so it's better to mark Cases, while Irac can't be declined.
  • Iraca is also used in english and german Texts, so it might be more common.
-80.133.114.141 06:53, 19 Novembris 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for that research. I was feeling that there must be Latin names for the province, but I found none, perhaps partly because it did not occur to me to try a feminine form. Out of those variants I also would choose Iraca: it's declinable and close to the modern name (also, although all genders are found in the names of regions in Latin, the feminine is surely commonest). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:54, 19 Novembris 2016 (UTC)

Iracum is stil my favorite, but apparently it cannot be found. I am fine with Iraca. I had even initally considered it, before it occurred to me that the word appears to be masculine in Arabic. I dislike Iracus on the grounds that there is a tendency since antiquity for words borrowed into the 2nd declension to switch to neuter if they don't refer to people or animals (e.g. γάρος > garum, שבת > sabbatum, Mexico >Mexicum, and so on.) This is just a tendency and does not trump attestations, but it still bothers me! --Iustinus (disputatio) 23:53, 19 Novembris 2016 (UTC)

Arach (and some similar forms) are presumably from the folk etymology associating the name with the Biblical ארך. I really don't think that works. The Hebrew name probably actually represents Uruk... but THAT doesn't stop people since one still hears a folk etymology deriving Iraq rom Uruk. I really doubt there's any connection, a the phonetics don't work. Still, stranger borrowings into Arabic have been known to happen, right? --Iustinus (disputatio) 00:02, 20 Novembris 2016 (UTC)

Iraca[fontem recensere]

Paginam ad "Iracam" nuper movi, fontibus utilibus antiquioribus ab anonymo supra citatis. Non nego fontes recentes "Iraquiam" suadere ... sed fortasse auctores horum documentorum, sicut nos, fontes antiquiores non iam reperiebant? Inter nomina botanica "Iracensis" multo saepius, "Iraquiensis" rarius legitur. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:39, 23 Iunii 2017 (UTC)