Disputatio:Cultura surdorum

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De nomine[fontem recensere]

If there's a source for the Latin term, fine. If there isn't (none is yet cited) it's not ideal: I think it results from a mistranslation of the English.

In "Deaf culture" "deaf" is not an adjective modifying "culture", it's a noun in apposition. The noun on its own, as a substantivization of an adjective used to name a category of people, always requires the definite article, "The deaf" (= "deaf people"; compare "The English" = "English people"). When such a noun is in apposition, the definite article is, by the rule of apposition, perforce deleted, so one would only know by logical analysis that the underlying word is a noun rather than a plain adjective: "culture cannot be literally deaf, but deaf people can have a specific culture". (Sorry if this is boring, but I haven't ever tried to work it out before.)

So the literal translation into Latin of the English term (assuming that's what we want) would be "Cultura surdorum". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:59, 24 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the article last night at bedtime and was going to make the same comment this morning, in more or less the same words as you see above (save deploying "objective noun" for "noun in apposition"). It may be, however, that few apart from native English-speaking—or, better, native Germanic-speaking—linguists will perceive the syntax thus, because it turns out that the French (Culture sourde) and Spanish (Cultura sorda) wikis hear it Jondel's way, whereas the Italian (Comunità sorda) and Galego (Comunidade xorda) are perhaps on the right track (a community being likelier to be deaf than a culture), and the Portuguese (Cultura dos surdos) gets it completely right, as of course does the German (Kultur der Gehörlosen). That said, it may be that enough native English-speakers hear deaf there as an adjective to make it acceptable, by some standard or other. What do other linguistically aware contributors say? IacobusAmor ([[Disp--Jondel (disputatio) 02:13, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)utatio Usoris:IacobusAmor|disputatio]]) 14:49, 24 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment:Cultura sorda is Neander's way. Thanks to him--Jondel (disputatio) 02:16, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, cultura surda was Neander's way to correct the word order. But in my ears cultura surda means next to nothing. If anything, it'd refer to a culture that isn't receptive to any influence or gives feeble or no signs of existence -- to wit, given the modern meaning of cultura, 'culture'. In my mind, too, cultura surdorum is way better. Also communitas surdorum aut coniunctio surdorum might be worth considering. Neander (disputatio) 21:04, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am appreciative both of your (Neander) correction to the much better Cultura Sudura and to your agreement with Cultura sudorum from my original title Surda Cultura. It is great to have your help in fixing things. communitas surdorum and coniunctio surdorum are also appropriate and I think everyone would agree.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:18, 26 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming that deaf culture is the original, and the other wikis are offering calques of it; if the direction of calquing goes some other way, then all bets are off! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:55, 24 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes deaf culture is the original.I'm putting up that attributio notice now.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:16, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)--Jondel (disputatio) 02:13, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Russian and Chinese also both use nouns: Культура глухих 'culture of the deaf' and 聾人文化 'deaf person culture'. Cultura surda might be possible in Latin, but cultura surdorum removes any possible ambiguity. Lesgles (disputatio) 18:16, 24 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's great that people>like you guys< take the effort to keep the quality of latin as correct as possible. I confess I can hardly understand the above but will google and look into wikis on your discussions like, what's an apposition.I assume that your translation is much better and will be moving it in a few days.--Jondel (disputatio) 11:46, 24 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment:Appositions also exist in Latin in addition to the above responses. .--Jondel (disputatio) 02:21, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

True, but they are scarcely ever used in the same way as they are in English. [Parenthesis: Hence Iacobus's terminology may well be more correct than mine! Maybe the English ones are not appositions! No one ever taught me English grammar. I blame my teachers, parents, friends, policemen, spiritual advisers etc.] The Latin apposition "urbs Bristolium" means a city, but the apparent English equivalent "Bristol city" does not mean a city, it means a football club.

In this case, the Latin apposition apparently equivalent to the English would be "Cultura (f. sg.) surdi (m. pl.)", but, believe me, Jondel, no one would understand it. If people don't understand the translation, the translator hasn't yet succeeded.

From one translator to another, happy Christmas, Jondel! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:07, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'm sure Iacobus agrees with your proposal with his 'all bets are off! comment. Lesgles comment to remove any possible ambiguity pretty much seals the discussion.Merry Christmas!---Jondel (disputatio) 10:43, 25 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am appreciative that we have experts like Andrew, Neander, Iacobus and Lesgles around. The original title was Surda Cultura. I am now movings according to everyone's (unanimous) concurrence.--Jondel (disputatio) 02:18, 26 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unanimous may be too optimistic! ... e.g. I seem to remember we have had disputes about the best term for "culture" in such contexts ... but I hope "cultura surdorum" will serve the purpose, at least till the perfect expression pops its head up. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:37, 26 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Communitas sudarum (one other option)as latin for Community of deaf (people) seems to lack or have a decreased sense of shared tradition, beliefs, behaviors , arts.--Jondel (disputatio) 11:39, 26 Decembris 2015 (UTC)[reply]