Disputatio:Spacelli

De titulo huius paginae

Ambo vocabula pastae vermiculatae et spacellorum bene protecta sunt fontibus, sed titulus tantum unus nobis eligendus est. Desidero titulum spacellorum proponere, et vicipaedianos invito ut res sequentes considerent:

• Sono historiaque verba “spacelli” et spaghetti proxima sunt.
• Est alia pasta quoque quae vermina memorat, vermicelli (“vermiculi”), certe simillima, at numquam dicatis civi Italiano vermicelli spacellosque idem esse! Quaedam propria pagina de vermicelli apud Vicipaediam bene desiderata est.
• Apud quosdam dialectos Italianos (e.g. Romae) pro spaghetti saepe spaghi dicitur (forma pluralis ab spago, “spaco”). Ergo oratores nexum semanticum inter pastam et spacum agnoscunt, et in lingua nostra idem nexus vocabulo spacellorum servatur.

Etiam memoro disputationem praeteritam de hac re apud tabernam. --Grufo (disputatio) 22:51, 4 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)

Spacus is absent from Ainsworth's (1837), Cassell's (1968), and Traupman (2007), so it must be an extremely rare word; words derived from it might be even rarer. (Why not base newfangled lemmata on commonly understood words?) Cassell's defines collyra as 'vermicelli'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:50, 5 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)

IacobusAmor dixit “Cassell's defines collyra as 'vermicelli'.”: A lemma based on collyra for vermicelli is supported by one of the sources (Epistula CLXXXIX, p. 6). It is also interesting to read what they write about spacelli:

Auctor nomen affert neolatinum ab Antonio Bacci confictum, q.e. pasta vermiculata (Antonio Bacci, Lexicon vocabulorum quae difficilius Latine redduntur, e.ed., Roma 1963, p.616: Spaghetti – pasta vermiculata). Aptius mihi videtur sequi etymon nominis Italici sive potius Italiani, q.e. spagho, pl. spaghi, i.q. spacus, tomix, genus filorum. Deminutivum verbi Latinitatis vulgaris (minimê malae), q.e. spacus (https://www.etimo.it/?term=spago), est spacellus, pluralis spacellī. Ergo licet spaghetti Latinê appellare: spacellī, -ōrum m.pl. (cfr Christian Helfer, op.mem., p.513, s.v. Spaghetti). - Ceterum i.q. Itali dicunt vermicelli, Latinê appellare ausim hôc nomine: collŷrae vermiculātae. Nam cibi pasticii sensu generali aptê nuncupantur collyrae (collŷra, -ae f., cfr Groß, Vox Latina 1977, p.394, cfr PLAUT.Pers.92, ITALA Levit.7,12 ; 8,26; cfr Georges, Ausführliches Deutsch-Lateinisches Handwörterbuch, Leipzig 1870, tom.2, col.543: „Nudel collyra ... Nudelsuppe, jus collyricum)“.

– Leo Latinus (3 Februarii 2019). "Epistula CLXXXIX". Epistulae Leoninae: 6 

“Why not base newfangled lemmata on commonly understood words?”: I suspect that the word was not so widespread in literature due to its working-class scope, but that does not necessarily reflect how understood or widespread the word was in real life. It did leave many traces, either through Latin or Greek; if we used the same criterion that Esperanto uses (i.e. how widespread a particular root is) we would find the word in Italian (spago – but spaco in Southern Italy), Greek (σπάγγος), Hungarian (spárga), Serbo-Croatian (шпага), Czech (špagát), Albanian (spango). Also, the word spacelli would definitely be understood today due to its remind of spaghetti. --Grufo (disputatio) 13:48, 5 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)

1. "Pasta vermiculata" would serve us nicely as a term for threadlike pasta in general -- there are several kinds -- and may be meant as a descriptor more than a suggested translation in Morgan and Vilborg.
2. Was the inventor of "spacelli" N. Gross, « Esculenta et potulenta », in : Vox Latina, 55, p. 67 as cited in Calepinus Novus? If so it was a very successful invention. It seems so widespread among the Latinist community that we could, in my view, accept it as direct equivalent to "spaghetti".
3. No wonder you are doubtful of "spacus", Iacobe. As a late Latin word it ought to turn up in several sources well known to us, but doesn't. Yet I have found it cited once by a fairly reliable Italian source (a real dictionary, not a web dictionary), so I guess it existed, I wish I knew where.
4. I think I'm going to drop out of vocabulary discussions for a bit. The more one does of this, the less one writes. Good luck to all. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:18, 5 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)

Andrew Dalby dixit “"Pasta vermiculata" would serve us nicely as a term for threadlike pasta in general”: I like the idea! We could name this page “spacelli” and begin the text with “Spacelli sunt genus pastae vermiculatae origine Italiana (Italice spaghetti vocantur) ...” --Grufo (disputatio) 16:22, 5 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)

Even before I'd read Andrew's first point, I was going to suggest this definition: "Collyra est pasta vermiculata. . . ." ¶ Spaghetti are [N.B.] noodles, but at least in the United States, spaghetti is [N.B.] a dish consisting of noodles drenched in tomato sauce, often with meatballs. Andrew may want to write six hundred variations of the recipe into the record. ::winkwink:: ¶ Point #4: agreed. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:42, 5 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)