Disputatio:Frequentia

Vide etiam disputationis paginam apud Systema Internationale.--Rafaelgarcia 15:04, 9 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I translated "times" as "tot" as in "11 times per second" as "11 tot per secundum". However, I am not certain that is the way to translate "times"--Rafaelgarcia 01:41, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't. What you want is a numeral adverb, answering the question Quotiens? 'How many times?'. They're all indeclinable, and those from five on up end -iens. Your 'eleven times' is undeciens. For 'per second', I seem to recall that the correct idiom is not with per, but with in plus accusative. Ainsworth's (eighteenth-century) English-to-Latin dictionary defines 'second' as temporis momentum ~ punctum, and so your whole phrase might be undeciens in temporis momentum. IacobusAmor 01:55, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess some of that is the difference between Ciceronan Latin and medaeval Latin. Newton used expressions of the type "pedes per minutum" to express velocities and the like, so I would regard them as OK for physics contexts which is precisely what "frequentia" is apparently limited to.--Rafaelgarcia 02:41, 10 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Newton's use of the "per minutum" construction was scarcely conditioned by scientific requirements. Just guessing, but it may come from his reading the Latin Bible in the school. Whereas the construction type "undeciens per secundum" would have been ok in Vulgar Latin (and Versio Vulgata), I'm pretty sure Cicero would have said "undeciens in secundo". It's in + ablative (rather than in + accusative which carries a finalistic reading in it). Neander 03:11, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What does finalistic mean? as opposed to "durative"? I think durative or ongoing is the sense being sought.--Rafaelgarcia 05:31, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the above by me may not be so clear, here are two examples of what one may be trying to say:

(1) occuring 11 times in a 1 second period

English: it occurred 11 times in a second; Spanish: occurio 11 veces en un segundo--Rafaelgarcia 12:19, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

versus

(2) occuring 11 times during a 1 second period and still occuring at the same uniform rate

English: it is vibrating 11 times each second or 11 times per second; Spanish: esta vibrando 11 veces cada segundo--Rafaelgarcia 12:19, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think (2) is what we are trying to render and what I am referring to as "durative".--Rafaelgarcia 06:24, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Been away for a while. Let me insert my reply here. I'm sorry my obscure use of "finalistic" caused uncertainty. That was actually a not so well taken comment on the "in + acc." construction type; e.g., in singulos annos 'for (the purpose of) one year at a time'. I guess it was just the "durative" sense I was out for. Though I understand the aspectual difference you're making, isn't it possible, in Spanish, to define, say, 11 Hz as both "11 veces en un segundo" and "11 veces cada segundo"? – But re Latin, the basic construction type is "in + abl.", as can be seen in the journal Latinitas, commentarii linguae Latinae excolendae quater in anno ex urbe Vaticana prodeuntes, methinks also this a durative case. I don't deny the possibility of saying "quater per annum", but to me it savours late Latin. Other possibilities might be quater quotannis ("4 veces cada año") and quater singulis annis, but these are all inferior to quater in anno. The said carries over, imo, to seconds as well. --Neander 23:07, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Translatio Hispanica tua, mi Rafael, coget me mirari num "vicis", fons scilicet verbi "vece", sat sit.--Ioscius ^(disp) 14:42, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mea sententia recte habes vicis (pl vices) fontem esse vocabuli Hispanici vez (pl. veces). Sed estne rectus dicere "undecim vices in temporis secundum"? Suntne "undecim vices" et "undeciens" aequivalentes?--Rafaelgarcia 16:09, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nescio et nondum litteraturam petebam. Modo fuit curiositas verborum. Ego putabam e voce . . . --Ioscius ^(disp) 16:29, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently it was used in late Latin, According to Lewis and Short, at Perseus, Definition 1b1:

A time, turn (late Lat.; cf. Orell. ad Hor. C. 4, 14, 13): ager tertiā vice arabitur, 
Pall. 10, 1 : tribus per diem vicibus, id. 1, 3 fin. ; cf.: tesserulas in medium 
vice suā quisque jaciebamus, Gell. 18, 13, 1 : vice quādam, once, Sid. Ep. 7, 1 ; 
Aus. Pan. Grat. Aug. 4.--

It helps to explain how the word came to spanish.--Rafaelgarcia 18:54, 11 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rafael, I'd like to change your "per exemplum" to "exempli causa", but if I did so, you'd probably ask why. :-) Well, because "exempli causa" is used by Cicero. "Per exemplum" is very popular, but it's late Latin. (And while I'm on it, "quam saepe" is "quotiens".) --Neander 00:21, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neander, if you can improve the article, please do go for it! We could use your help.--Rafaelgarcia 00:26, 12 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]