Disputatio:Alkali

en:Alkali vs. en:Base (chemistry)[fontem recensere]

Haec pagina eandem rem agere videtur ac en:Alkali, non en:Base (chemistry). --Fabullus 13:08, 21 Martii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uh-oh. en:Base (chemistry) est una ex 1000 paginae, quam ergo nunc amisimus, nisi aliquis eam rescribat! IacobusAmor 13:20, 21 Martii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Paginam nunc nexui cum en:Alkali, non en:Base (chemistry), ita nos ipsos defraudans una e 1000 paginis! Scribenda est nobis pagina nomine fere Basis (chemia) aut quodam simili. Egomet hanc scribere non possum quod mihi non patet quid intersit inter alkali et basim. --Fabullus 08:53, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Morgan dat "chem base (chem) lixivia; (Lev.)" alterus locus dat "LIXIVIA: ou potassa cáustica ou hidróxido de potássio é um sólido ... Lixivia em Portugal, é o nome de uma solução aquosa de hidróxido de sódio ( e outros " Nescio, investigandum est.--Rafaelgarcia 10:57, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lixivium plerumque sodam causticam vel natrii hydroxydum notat. Alkali Aevo Medio plerumque potassam (potassii carbonatem aut p. bicarbonatem aut p. hydroxydum) notabat, nunc tamen eodem sensu ac linguis modernis usurpari videtur. --Fabullus 11:25, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quasi omnes linguae (et Romanicae et lingua Graeca) dicunt "base" aut similis.--Rafaelgarcia 11:03, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found a nice google book on pharmaceutical latin but unfortunately I couldn't find the translation for base there--Rafaelgarcia 11:51, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was hard to find in the above book because he uses "base" in three senses, but I finally found it in one of the glossaries: basis (f) base on p. 159 and 179.--207.121.66.26 21:36, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen someone has already added the "chemical" meaning in the page "basis". Well done. Infact, chemistry book call that, for example in italian like in most of neolatin languages, "base" or "alcale", but base is more common and more known. Perhaps the page should be re-directed under the name "Basis (Chemia)", and the definition should include both "Basis vel Alcalium est....". This is my humble opinion.--Poecus 21:51, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But evidently in latin, based on all the evidence above, alcalium is not a synonym but a specific kind (the most common) of basis. --207.121.66.26 23:16, 16 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the meaning you talk about was mainly used in the Middle Ages, when Alcalium would mean Potash (Potassa). But we don't use Alcalium or Alkali in the "medieval" meaning, but as a plain latin translation of "Alcale", wich, nowadays, is used almost as a synonym. However, to avoid mistakes, we'd better call the page Basis, perhaps including "Alcalium" or similar but saying the difference with the ancient meaning of potassa in the History.--Poecus 13:28, 17 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where have you found base translated as alcalium? I'm sure the quite modern book on pharmaceutical latin cited above would have given it as a synonym if it were a legitimate synonym. To me it sounds like you are inventing a translation by backforming from italian.--207.121.66.26 15:27, 17 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not base translated as alcalium, I was only to say they are often used as synonyms nowadays; I'm afraid I sometimes don't manage to explain well in English. However, you have found a good outcome in the page Basis (Chemia), highlighting the little difference you all were talking about. --Poecus 19:45, 17 Iunii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Declinatio[fontem recensere]

I removed alcalium as the source used to support it did not: it had alcalibus and the two examples of alcalium were clearly genitive. It perhaps was using the word as plurale tantum, as the 1855 dissertation definitely is. Pantocrator 00:38, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are right that the source originally quoted uses abl. pl. 'alcalibus' and gen. pl. 'alcalium'. Yet it also uses gen.p. 'alcaliorum'. I have replaced the source by a search in Google Books for 'alcaliorum' and 'alcaliis', which returns quite a number of hits. --Fabullus 10:11, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Torbern Bergman used alkali as indeclinable in the singular, and a third-declension neuter in the plural, and perhaps the adoption of the plural use was to avoid the indeclinable singular. Pantocrator 00:38, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure there are more instances of gen.sg. alcalis and alkalis to be found, but since these forms are also used as plurals in English and French, it is hard to find the appropriate ones. --Fabullus 10:11, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said before, Google really should have a Latin language option. I would suggest that to them, were there any way for ordinary people to contact them so. Pantocrator 10:22, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree entirely! --Fabullus 10:27, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I found on Google only one source that has declined forms in the singular: [1]. I therefore wrote the note I did in the references section. Pantocrator 00:38, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You searched for the masculine/feminine accusative form alcalem and found only one instance, which the author himself immediately glosses as alcali (acc. sg. n.). --Fabullus 10:11, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand; the glosses in the book are not corrections, but alternative or common names of substances. The author himself wrote per alcalem. Pantocrator 10:22, 26 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)[reply]