Disputatio Usoris:Ioscius/Cannabis

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Emenda, si clariter patet emendendum. Rogato quaestiones in parte praecipua.

Why are you rendering English 'plant' as flos? Stearns implies that in modern botanical Latin, flos is universally 'flower', and 'plant' is regularly planta, -arum. IacobusAmor 00:51, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

I suspect he has flora in mind. But yes, flos means "flower," and flora is a collective noun. Classical Latin had no good word for plant--planta meant something more like "graft." Bizarrely if you wanted to say "plants" you had to use some sort of circumlocution like res virentes or herbae et arbores. Since botanists have long used planta to mean "plant" in general, I'd say it's fair game. But if you want to avoid it (which I confess I would want, were I the primary author) then I would suggest herba. This is not only excellent classical Latin, it's also appropriate for l'herbe par excellance. --Iustinus 01:11, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah: but in botanical Latin, a herba is a kind of planta, and not all plantae are herbae. I predict that in ten years, Vicipaedia will have split up into at least two wikipedias: one using premediæval vocabulary & grammar, and one using modern vocabulary & grammar! IacobusAmor 02:05, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

In fact I was referring to flos. I admit my personal expertise in this article to be with, err, the medicamentum, not the fibrae, so to to speak. This is one o the reasons I have not been editing in the article namespace =] --Ioscius ^(disp) 02:34, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Etymologia

Benetowa on the etymology of cannabis: "The astonishing resemblance between the Semitic 'kanbos' and the Scythian 'cannabis' lead me to suppose that the Scythian word was of Semitic origin." Iosci, I wouldn't go with Benetowa. Exodus 30:23 is rather ambiguous and maybe behind tendentious interpretations. And what she quotes as Scythian is of course Greek. Persian has kanab, which comes close to being the source of Gk κάνναβις. It seems clear that cannabis is a Wanderwort. Sumerian has kunibu (see Heinz Happ's note in Indogermanische Forschungen 68, 1963, 99), which may be the "real" source. It is likely though that the word wandered to Semitic languages as well. A dependable source would be Pierre Chantraine, Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque (1968), s.v. κάνναβις. Neander 22:36, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Great. Thanks alot. This is the other reason that I haven't been working in the article namespace. There seem to be innumerable saources, contemporary and ancient. I want to amass my full list before I go to the University's library. It's a lot to work through it all. Please, if you see anything else in the course of my tinkerings, let me know. Thanks, again.--Ioscius ^(disp) 23:00, 7 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Well I transcribed the entry from Chantraine with horrible diacritics (on the university's computer), but it didn't tell us a whole lot. As for Happ, my library's copy starts at 73, 1968. Do you have access to 68, 1963?--Ioscius ^(disp) 16:48, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do, but right now I'm away from the university library. Expecting to be back on monday at the latest. Let's then return to the IF. And yes, Chantraine doesn't tell too much, but what he tells is usually dependable. Given basic info, it may be possible to tell the story (historia speculativa) of the probable wanderings of this merchandise word along ancient trade routes &c. Neander 19:05, 8 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Iosci, I'm having bad luck with Happ's note. The library people said the volume must have been misplaced somewhere. They're working on finding it. Meanwhile, let me offer some comments on your etymology section. Please, forget Isidor's musings. They're worst kind of Volketymologie that has a loristic value of its own, but we're doing it scientifically, right? Cannabis is clearly a Wanderwort, which means that it has been adopted from language to language along with the commodity itself. So, the Latin word cannabis has been borrowed from Greek κάνναβις, as you have it. The point of radiation is generally set to Scythia or Thracia, though we don't know how the word was pronounced. On the evidence of Persian kanab (Thracians and Scythians probably spoke languages/dialects closely related to Persian), we may posit Scythian *kanab 'hemp' as the source for Gk κάνναβις (the geminate -νν- may very well reflect a folk-etymological association with κάννα/κάννη, but that's a different story).

I'd rather not forget Isidore, but expose him for what he is. It might be a good way to discuss the geminate nu, as you suggested.

The Scythian *kanab has also given Armenian kanap^c and Slavic konop-. Also the Germanic peoples somehow got hold of the res & vocabulum but changed it according to Grimm's Law to (Proto-Germanic) *χanap (= Old Saxon hanap) > Old English henep (hænep) > *henp > E hemp. (Canvas comes much later, and its route is different. Etymologically, it doesn't belong.)

I intend to expand this section greatly and discuss the travelings of the word after, around, beside, and past Latin and into modern languages. Those are just jotted down notes. Thanks for the new info.

Some Romance forms (e.g. Old French chaneve) come from Vulgar Latin (sermo rusticus) variants canapis or canape.

Maybe Happ hasn't much to offer. If there is something, I'll let you know. But I suggest you have a look at A.Walde & J.B.Hofmann's Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch, I, s.v. Cannabis. Heidelberg: Winter 1938. --Neander 21:02, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have to go to campus, tomorrow, I'll see if they have it. --Ioscius ^(disp) 21:40, 13 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Usus per historiam

Medicina

Nostri aevi

Iosci, quomodo dicitur Latine stoner? Montivagus 03:52, 23 Octobris 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm..."saxosus" omnino non satisfacit...--Ioscius ^(disp) 04:22, 23 Octobris 2007 (UTC)