Disputatio:Picti

Verba quae non intellego

"inculti in antiqua orientalis septentrionalisque a quid hodierno natio Scotia est". "Natio" means tribe or people; "incultus" means uncultured. I guess you might say that about them, though they might disagree! But inculti is nom. pl. or gen. sg., while "natio" is nom. sg. ... and what does "a quid hodierno" mean? I'm stuck! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:34, 6 Augusti 2013 (UTC)

Greetings. I used globus for "group", and natio for "nation". Norstedts lexikon says for "group" globus; "Picti fuerunt globus populi Gallici..."

I was writing "...habitated in the ancient east and north of what today is the nation Scotland". Incolere, "to grow" ("olos incolo") and "to live in" ("Gallia est omnis divisa in parted tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani..."). I was not totaly certain about the a quid hodierno, "of what dotay is".

I wrote almost the same after the article of the English Wikipedia: "The Picts were a group of Late Iron Age and Early Medieval Celtic people living in ancient eastern and northern Scotland.[1]", and the number is the source. But please add and improve. :)

Donatello (disputatio) 00:48, 7 Augusti 2013 (UTC).

OK, I understand now. Let's start with "a quid hodierno". First, "a/ab" never means "of". The normal meaning is "from", which is quite different from "of" in English and usually quite different from the meaning of the genitive in Latin (though I have a feeling Swedish may help to introduce confusion here!)

[Incidentally, if you are using "a/ab", it must be followed by an ablative: therefore not "quid" but "quo".]

"Habitated" is not an English word. I think you mean "inhabit". OK, "colo" can mean "inhabit-and-cultivate". But if you put it in the passive, the subject has to be the place or thing that is cultivated, not the people. You can therefore say "Scotia orientalis septentrionalisque a Pictis olim colebatur", Eastern and northern Scotland was formerly inhabited-and-farmed by the Picts. If you want to say it in the active, "Picti ... qui olim Scotiam orientalem septentrionalemque incolebant."

Hodierno is a masculine adjective in the dative/ablative. It means "today's", certainly, but today's what? "Scotia" is feminine, so if you meant "of today's Scotland" it would be "Scotiae hodiernae". OK, I think you really mean that the Picts once-upon-a-time ("olim") lived in the region called Scotland. It is called Scotland now, but was not called Scotland then. That's quite correct. So we can handle that, but we have to be clear about it: we can say "... qui olim partes orientales septentrionalesque incolebant eius regionis, quam hodie Scotiam appellamus."

"Incolo" is a usually-not-so-good later alternative to "colo". If you use it, you have to know that the form you would like to use as a passive participle has a quite different dictionary meaning: "incultus" = "uncultured".

If you want to call a modern state a "natio" you can do it -- the word will stretch to that, certainly -- but since the Picts were also a "natio" it doesn't seem helpful. Look up "natio" in a Latin section of the dictionary, and you will see the range of meanings.

Hope that helps ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:26, 7 Augusti 2013 (UTC)

One more thing, about "globus". If you look up "globus" in a Latin dictionary, you find: "a round body, ball, sphere, globe; a dumpling [I would say rather "doughnut"]; a close order of battle, knot, troop, band, company; a globular mass; ... a throng, crowd, body or mass of people ... a clique". (That's from Lewis & Short.) It seems as if what's being described is a temporary grouping or crowd -- people collected into a ball or globe or mass. I don't think that's really what is meant here: I think we're talking about a subdivision of the Celtic-speaking peoples that separated or migrated from the others and became a people and kingdom. That's why I changed the word "globus". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:17, 7 Augusti 2013 (UTC)

I see. Big thanks. :) Yes, incultivated and collected into a globe seem to be very incorrect... haha. Thanks for the help. :)

I'll add "...qui olim Scotiam orientalem septentrionalemque incolebant, tum Caledonia Romanorum veterum appellata." Does it sound okey?

Donatello (disputatio) 13:07, 8 Augusti 2013 (UTC).

It's good, only I would say tum Caledoniam a Romanis antiquis appellatam. In English, "then called Caledonia by the ancient Romans". They are indeed old, but "ancient" pins them down even better. Some day I will try to learn Swedish: the differences in "of, by, from" etc. as expressed by English and Swedish speakers are fascinating!

We have no verb in this part of the sentence, so in grammar it belongs to the preceding clause: Scotiam is correctly accusative, so these words "appellatam" and "Caledoniam" have to be accusative too. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:40, 8 Augusti 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the accusatie form over there. :) I missed it. Antiquus must be better then than vetus. Five thousands year later maybe we will call them prisci Romani... -- Donatello (disputatio) 15:05, 8 Augusti 2013 (UTC).