Disputatio:Hugo Chávez

Fortasse, cum electiones in Venetiola adveniant, melius esset hanc paginam semi-protegere eo consilio ut usores anonimi cum agenda politica eam non possint recensere. Recenter sunt qui eam vandalismo continue affligunt formulis aliisque rebus delendis.--Rafaelgarcia 14:51, 21 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

Consentior.--Ioscius ^(disp) 17:45, 21 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

Verbum viduisset

Care usor ignote 87.17.248.206, si tibi placet quid Hispanice seu Anglice significat "cum Praesidis Perez exercitum petere plumbo populo viduisset"? Verba viduasset (Anglice 'he deprived') et vidisset (Anglice 'he saw') cognoscimus, sed formam viduisset non intellegimus. IacobusAmor 15:03, 21 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

verbum est "vidisset", "petere plumbo aliquem" significat descargar (hispane), sparare (italice),contra aliquem.

Hmm. Por eso entiendo petere plumbo aliquem sicut Anglice 'to assail someone with lead'. Is that a genuine Latin idiom? or a literal translation of a modern Spanish/Italian idiom? I'm trying to imagine Cicero saying it, and am wondering if he'd really have been thinking of a leaden truncheon (club). Would Milo really have killed Clodius with lead, instead of iron (culter, gladius, pugio) or wood (clava, fustis)? IacobusAmor 16:49, 21 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

Ovidius dicit "petere aliquem saxis", etiam ille dicit plumbum ut dicat "bala"(hispane).Enim dicit: plumbum funda iacit.

OK, this

OK, this must not be my day, because the paragraph still isn't "clicking" in my mind: Exercitus Venetiolani inferiorum ordinum centurio ut everteret rem publicam anno 1992 statuit, cum die 27 Februarii 1989 Praesidis Perez exercitum petere plumbo populum vidisset, quia reclamabat magnorum pretiorum causa. Is usque ad annum 1994 detentus est. Anglice ut videtur: 'As a captain of the Venezuelan army of the lower ranks, he decided in the year 1992 to overthrow the commonwealth, because on the 27th day of February 1989 he'd seen that President Perez's army with lead was assailing the people, for the interest [causa] of great prizes/ransoms [pretiorum] was resounding [reclamabat]' ~ '. . . the people[;] he was reverberating [reclamabat] on account [causā] of great prizes/ransoms'. My dictionaries add that reclamare can mean 'to cry out against' and 'to contradict loudly'—a likelier sense in the context, but how would it fit the given construction? Ubi erravimus? I love these puzzles! IacobusAmor 19:23, 21 Octobris 2008 (UTC)

id de quo loquor in "quia reclamabat magnorum pretiorum causa" est populus.Igitur Chavez deliberat cum nonnullis militibus revertere rem publicam,cum Praeses Perez necare reclamantem populum in publico iusserit.

Maiusculi

Care 87.11.15.206, why are you so assiduously capitalizing common words like 'the state' (Civitas), 'the committee' (Consilium), and 'the constitution' (Constitutio)?

As I hinted earlier, there's no good reason to capitalize words when they refer to "any old things": perhaps "the Constitution" is OK, but "a Constitution" (= "any old Constitution") is not. Likewise civitas 'a state/nation', consilium 'a committee', and natio 'the tribe'. ¶ Also, conversely, Vicipaedia's custom is to capitalize, not lowercase, the names of months. IacobusAmor 12:59, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Constitutio

According to Cassell's, the correct classical Latin for 'constitution' (Hispanice 'constitución') is civitatis status and civitatis forma and "sometimes respublica alone." Apparently, to Cicero, reipublicae constitutio would have meant something like 'the settled condition of the republic', not 'the document that embodies the basic principles & laws of the republic'. IacobusAmor 18:10, 30 Octobris 2008 (UTC).

Romans didn't have written constitutions so they didn't have a particular word for this concept. Status civitatis is used by Cicero to mean constitution but also a whole host of other various other things related to the state and citizenship: its main meaning in roman times was "citizenship status", but could also mean: state (status) of the state (republic), organization (order) of the citizenship, etc.. Constitutio, though neolatin, is attested (16th century) with the specific meaning of constitution and really makes much more sense to use when describing a modern written state constitution.--Rafaelgarcia 17:43, 25 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Britanniarum Regnum has a constitution (so called in English), but it's not a written document. Was the Neolatin term constitutio invented to describe the British constitution? If so, then constitutio would seemingly have been intended to describe an unwritten concept!—though in that case, why didn't Latinists retain a classical form for it? IacobusAmor 00:20, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Because there is no unambiguous classical term for "constitution", as opposed to state of citizenship, form of government, etc.. I agree an unwritten consitution like Britain's is also a "constitutio rei publicae" ="established method of organizing the republic/constitution of the republic", I was just saying that the modern written ones today at the very least should be referred to as constitutiones. It is not the case that Cicero never used the term, just that for him he used a variety of other terms too, and sometimes he used constitutio just in its raw sense and not just in the sense of constitution.--Rafaelgarcia 00:54, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

See also Status Civitatis Vaticanae (also the Disputatio there) and en:Status in Roman legal system, and also A History of Roman Law (Google Books), and similar books.--Rafaelgarcia 17:50, 25 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Utor verbis "Civitas et Consilium" quod latinae linguae multi magistri in hoc situ haec dicunt. "Constitutio" quod sic scribitur in verborum libro. [Scripsit Usor:93.144.84.111.]

Rogatum

Peto a magistris linguae latinae ubi sint errores in hoc scripto.

Qui scribunt in hoc loco cogitant scire magis scriptorum libri verborum.--Usor:93.144.178.158

Translating the above into English: I seek from teachers of latin where errors be in this writing.

Those who write in this place, are thinking that to know more of a book of written words...

Translating into Spanish: Busco de los maestros del latin, donde sean los errores en este escrito.

Quienes escriben en este lugar, estan pensando que saber mas de un libro de palabras escritas...--Rafaelgarcia 12:19, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Care 93.144.178.158, usor ignote, Latinitatis +1 hunc locum infra aestimasti. Cur?—Die 23 novembris 2008 comitia ut Nationis 22 regiones haberent novos duces habita sunt. Praesidis factio occupavit 17 regiones, adversa factio quinque et Municium Urbis Caracas. ¶ My worry in general isn't so much about technical or grammatical accuracy (though one wonders what Municium means) as about style: the choice of vocabulary and the order of words. For example: Novam Constitutionem petivit, et consecutus est sententia, quae incoepit vigere anno 2000 'It sought a new constitution; and an opinion/vote/purpose, which began to thrive in the year 2000, resulted.' The verb incipere is almost never used in the perfect tense. If Municium is supposed to be municipium, how can it also be an urbs? Is it really supposed to mean 'the City of Caracas's borough' (h.e., 'the borough belonging to [= in the possession of] the City of Caracas')? The word order makes 2000 the climax of the thought. Little things, but they can add up. IacobusAmor 12:54, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

Mea sententia, male utitur vocabulo "sententia" sensu "term of political office" fortasse hic Latine "regnum". Re vera puto diu post nunc hanc paginam gradum L+1 non merituram esse , quod super illa menda iam indicata, plura certe manent, et manebunt, ne aliquis ea correcturus est. Gradus L minime malus est. Eam excolere ut super gradum L pagina quaedam mereat, mihi difficillimum est. --Rafaelgarcia 14:15, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)

De: "male utitur vocabulo "sententia" sensu "term of political office" fortasse hic Latine "regnum"."—OK: 'and a term, which began to thrive in the year 2000, resulted' iam Anglice est "jibberish," ergo (aio) Latine. IacobusAmor 16:57, 26 Novembris 2008 (UTC)