Disputatio:Comitatus
Germanice "Komitat"?[fontem recensere]
Sexaginta paene annos in Germania vivo, verbum autem "Komitat" numquam audivi. Verbum aptum in Germania est "de:Verwaltungsgemeinschaft". Bis-Taurinus (disputatio) 21:56, 22 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Et de:Grafschaft, si ad iurisdictionem comitis nobilis spectat. Sed praeterea sensus huius vocabuli distinguendi sunt. Nam comitatus in lingua classica, ut scribit Forcellini, est "comitum multitudo ([...] Germ. d. Gefolge; Angl. a number of followers, a train, retinue, suit, equipage)". Lesgles (disputatio) 01:20, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Fortasse utile est verbatim distinguere. County = "Comitatus" in Anglia, Scotia, etc. olim populus comiti subiectus fuit. County in Civitatibus Foederatis est civitatis subdivisio (sed licet, mea mente, ratione etymologica eodem verbo Latino uti). County si in Vicipaedia Anglica de regionibus non Anglophonis legimus, debemus non ab Anglica lingua sed a vernaculari incipientes nomen Latinum idoneum constituere. Si nihil aliud suggeritur, se offerunt verba Romana "pagus", "provincia", fortasse etiam "regio". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:22, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- What did, say, the counts of Holland call themselves and their county? Medieval & Renaissance documents must have a Latin word for it. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:12, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- If we're talking about the counties (comtés, Grafschaften, etc.) of medieval Europe (some of which are still used today), I'm fairly sure most (all?) of them were indeed comitatûs (Graafschap Holland = comitatus Hollandiae, county of Barcelona = comitatus Barcinonensis). But I think Andrew is right about things like en:Counties of the People's Republic of China, which never had anything to do with counts or earls in the European sense. In those cases we might as well stick with classical pagus, etc. Lesgles (disputatio) 19:23, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Some of these lands could have been semi-independent states, especially ducatus, such as the duchy (and then marquisate!) of Wey: "In 346 BC, the duke of Wey degraded himself to a marquis. In 320 BC, the marquis of Wey again degraded himself to only a jun (lord). And by then Wey only possessed a county called Puyang" (en:Wey (state)). ¶ I don't see what's wrong with county everywhere, as explained thus: "A county is a geographical region of a country used for administrative or other purposes, in certain modern nations. . . . Outside English-speaking countries, an equivalent of the term "county" is often used to describe sub-national jurisdictions that are structurally equivalent to counties in the relationship they have with their national government; but which may not be administratively equivalent to counties in predominantly English-speaking countries" (en:County). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:57, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, that confirms my view of the broad use of English "County". Well, OK, a similarly generous definition of "Comitatus" would be relevant, if we could find one. But can we?
- From Du Cange: "COMITATUS: Comitis, seu judicis dignitas, districtus, jurisdictio, territorium". In general the examples in Du Cange (there are many) relate fairly strictly to territories actually governed by a count. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:37, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Some of these lands could have been semi-independent states, especially ducatus, such as the duchy (and then marquisate!) of Wey: "In 346 BC, the duke of Wey degraded himself to a marquis. In 320 BC, the marquis of Wey again degraded himself to only a jun (lord). And by then Wey only possessed a county called Puyang" (en:Wey (state)). ¶ I don't see what's wrong with county everywhere, as explained thus: "A county is a geographical region of a country used for administrative or other purposes, in certain modern nations. . . . Outside English-speaking countries, an equivalent of the term "county" is often used to describe sub-national jurisdictions that are structurally equivalent to counties in the relationship they have with their national government; but which may not be administratively equivalent to counties in predominantly English-speaking countries" (en:County). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:57, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- If we're talking about the counties (comtés, Grafschaften, etc.) of medieval Europe (some of which are still used today), I'm fairly sure most (all?) of them were indeed comitatûs (Graafschap Holland = comitatus Hollandiae, county of Barcelona = comitatus Barcinonensis). But I think Andrew is right about things like en:Counties of the People's Republic of China, which never had anything to do with counts or earls in the European sense. In those cases we might as well stick with classical pagus, etc. Lesgles (disputatio) 19:23, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- What did, say, the counts of Holland call themselves and their county? Medieval & Renaissance documents must have a Latin word for it. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:12, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)
- Fortasse utile est verbatim distinguere. County = "Comitatus" in Anglia, Scotia, etc. olim populus comiti subiectus fuit. County in Civitatibus Foederatis est civitatis subdivisio (sed licet, mea mente, ratione etymologica eodem verbo Latino uti). County si in Vicipaedia Anglica de regionibus non Anglophonis legimus, debemus non ab Anglica lingua sed a vernaculari incipientes nomen Latinum idoneum constituere. Si nihil aliud suggeritur, se offerunt verba Romana "pagus", "provincia", fortasse etiam "regio". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:22, 29 Octobris 2017 (UTC)