Disputatio:Boston Red Sox

Cur dicis professionalis lusus pilae clavaeque manipulus et non professionalis basipilae manipulus...Non dicis de basipila (Angl. Baseball)?

Lusus pilae clavaeque est descriptio, nec nomen.--Rafaelgarcia 01:52, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scio, scio: sed in Traupviri libro, lusus nomen ('baseball game') est lusus pilae clavaeque, et phrasis pro 'to play baseball' est pila clavaque ludere. IacobusAmor 03:22, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Traupman^[1] dixit:

baseball (the ball itself) basipila; (the sport) ludus basipilae; a baseball game basipilae lusus, basipilae certamen; play baseball basipila ludere

--Rafaelgarcia 03:37, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

↑ Traupman, Iohannes. [2003]. Colloquia Latine Exercito Orali, editio tertia (Anglice: Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, Third Edition.). pp {{{1}}}. Vauconda, IL: Editores Bolchazy-Carducci. ISBN 086516438X

Ah, Editio anni 1997 dicit 'baseball game' esse lusus pilae clavaeque, et phrasis pro 'to play baseball' esse pila clavaque ludere. IacobusAmor 03:22, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Morgan:

.ball baseball / basipila, pilae et basium ludus (LRL) | bat (in baseball) / baculus (LRL)

.ball baseball / follis bassus [Soc. Lat.] (Helf.)

But follis basically = 'bag', implying a hollow ball; hence true for air-filled balls (football, basketball, volleyball), but false for solid balls (baseball, cricket ball, golf ball, croquet ball). IacobusAmor 12:13, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. A soccer ball, procul dubio, is a follis. This is a pila.--Ioscius ^(disp) 16:32, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

.ball baseball lusus pilae clavaeque | baseman custos (stationis) | base (baseball) statio; home - (baseball) summa statio (Lev.)

.ball baseball: bat / fustis; lignum pulsorium* [Eichenseer] (Helf.)

.ball baseball: batter / Schläger: battûtor* [Eichenseer] (Helf.)

.ball baseball: batter, batsman (cricket), stroke (pace-setting rower) / Schlagmann: pulsor* [Eichenseer] (Helf.)

.ball baseball: pitcher, thrower / missor [Cic.]; iaculator (Helf.)

--Ioscius ^(disp) 04:41, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! So it seems that the taxonomy of games includes a general concept that might be put under an article Lusus pilae clavaeque (Bat-and-ball game), which in turn divides into at least two historical streams. (1) The stream involving runners requires at least two articles: Cricket, in which runners go back & forth between paired metae (attested in Ainsworth as ostiola 'wickets'; sing. ostiolum), and perhaps Circuli (Rounders), in which runners go around a set of metae (stationes 'bases'); the latter in turn generates the article Basipila (Baseball) and perhaps other articles. With cricket goes a similar game, stoolball. (2) The stream not involving runners requires at least three articles: Bat and trap, Croquet, and Golf (and Miniature golf). Bat and trap seems to have several variants (including trapball and knur and spell). So, in tabular form (and each of these headings wants its own article):

Lusus pilae clavaeque. <---Perhaps reducible to Lusus pilae, the bat being understood; Cicero attests ludus [sic] pilae

I. Lusus cum cursoribus.

A. Cricket.

1. Cricket per se.

2. Stoolball (in several variants).

B. Rounders.

1. Rounders per se.

2. Basipila.

II. Lusus sine cursoribus.

A. Bat and trap.

1. Trapball.

2. Knur and spell.

B. Croquet.

C. Golf.

1. Golf per se.

2. Miniature golf.

Perhaps you can add more terms to the outline. ¶ Why are we using the rarer word lusus when Cicero attests the commoner word, ludus ("ludus pilae, vel tesserarum, vel talorum")? ¶ None of the evidence cited above gives us a wanted general term for 'baseball player', and qui basipila ludit seems wordy. So which is it: basipilarius? basipilista? or something else? ¶ For 'home plate', summa statio should be fine, but informally—though one usually shudders at calques!—there may be nothing wrong with domus as a metaphor, just as fanaticus 'fan' can be OK for fautor 'supporter'. The lexicon of sports is rife with metaphor! ¶ For the bat in baseball & cricket, we have baculum (attested as such in Ainsworth's 18th-century dictionary), clava (preferred by Traupman, who also uses it for (golf) 'club'), and fustis. Which is best? It might well want to be different from the word for the club used in golf and the word for the mallet used in croquet. ¶ This discussion should probably be moved to an apter place, either Taberna or Lusus pilae clavaeque (or whatever term is to render 'bat-and-ball game'). IacobusAmor 12:13, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Basipila seems the best choice for baseball, Lusus pilae clavaeque, as a descriptive term, is despite its length sufficiently vague as to include cricket, golf, and any other game in which a club and ball are involved. The Words dictionary does not give a specific term meaning 'bat' in latin, we only have club clava, stick 'baculum' or staff club/stick 'fustis'(uncommon). Given that baseball as sometimes been referred as playing ball and stick, either 'baculum' or 'fustis' would seem better term for bat than 'clava'. Since a golf club is called a club, 'clava' would be better for that. 'Malleus' (hammer, mallet) would seem an apt translation for the croquet mallet. In the widest sense, however, all three terms would apply in general to translate the idea of 'ball and stick games'.

As to where this discussion should occur I agree it would be better at a page such as Ludus pilae clavaeque --Rafaelgarcia 16:14, 22 Octobris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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