Disputatio:Libertas religionis

Nomen[fontem recensere]

Suadeo ut haec commentatio ad libertas credendi moveatur, ut nomen formulae in libertas sentiendi, libertas imprimendi, libertas loquendi, atque libertas philosophandi adhibitae congruat. Mattie (disputatio) 23:55, 16 Aprilis 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sed ut videtur libertas credendi (vel cogitandi) et libertas religionis non sunt eadem res. Ait wikipedia Anglica: "'Freedom of thought' is the precursor and progenitor of—and thus is closely linked to—other liberties: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression." (Praeterea, en:Freedom of belief ad en:Freedom of thought dirigitur.) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 01:41, 17 Aprilis 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fontes quos in commentationem inserui plane libertate credendi pro freedom of religion utuntur ('freedom of [religious] belief'). Freedom of thought libertas sentiendi, cogitandi, mentis, aut animi est, ut commentatio illa explicat. Mattie (disputatio) 01:59, 17 Aprilis 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quamquam constantia nominum desideranda est, in libris Google saltem locutio "libertas religionis" (238 paginae) locutionem "libertas credendi" (151 paginas) evincit. Lesgles (disputatio) 22:35, 19 Maii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since they're both well attested, I don't think the exact number of occurrences matters much. Rather, we should choose the name that works best. When I was working on the 'freedom of _____' pages I tried to be consistent by using verbs rather than nouns (after beginning, if memory serves, with Libertas sentiendi and finding mostly attestations of 'sentiendi' rather than 'mentis' or what have you): libertates credendi (of religion), philosophandi (academic freedom), imprimendi (of the press), sentiendi (of thought), loquendi (of speech). Some of these cases were well attested with nouns as well ('libertas preli / imprimendi') but others not. Mattie (disputatio) 21:45, 20 Maii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fontes[fontem recensere]

From Morgan's (?) old list:

.gvt freedom of religion / libertas cultûs [Donat]; libertas religionis [s.17]; religionum tolerantia [s.17]; libertas exercitii religionis [s.18]; tolerantia religiosa [s.18] (Helf.)

.gvt freedom of speech / libertas sermonis [s.17]; libertas voti [Bauer] (Helf.)

.gvt freedom of the press / libertas quidlibet typis edendi [Vox Lat.]; libertas libraria [Bacci]; libertas preli [Bauer]; tolerantia librorum [s.17]; (Helf.) ]] libertas imprimendi

.gvt freedom of thought / liberta sentiendi (v. cogitandi v. mentis) [s.18] (Helf.)

Vide http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/faculty-pages/patrick-owens/lexicon/silva/index.aspx IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:40, 20 Maii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Two things[fontem recensere]

1. As I warned above, freedom of religion and freedom of belief (or thought) aren't the same thing. If "Libertas credendi" corresponds to en:Freedom of religion, what Latin title should correspond to en:Freedom_of_thought?
2. Doesn't Tertullian's term take precedence over later ones (and shouldn't it therefore be the lemma)? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 05:49, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Freedom of belief and freedom of thought are not the same thing. As you yourself listed above, freedom of thought is libertas sentiendi (and both pages already link, no problem). Freedom of belief and of religion are often used interchangeably, though that may admittedly be debatable (exactly because there is the pair "religion or belief"). Just as an example, the German Wiki redirects de:Glaubensfreiheit to de:Religionsfreiheit (addendum: Interestingly, en:Freedom of belief does redirect to en:Freedom of thought, but without any explanation in the latter article. Sigur (disputatio) 10:03, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)). If you look at Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, it refers to three concepts, thought, conscience and religion, but it then goes on to guarantee freedom to manifest only ones religion or belief (belief here being a fundamental philosophical conviction analogous to a religious one), while freedom of thought in other matters (in particular political ones) realises on the level of manifestation in Article 19 as freedom of expression. Sigur (disputatio) 08:39, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That being said, if there is a majority for libertas religionis, fine, even though I'm seduced by Mattie's uniformity argument. But five years later, it was time to stir in the hornet's nest... Sigur (disputatio) 09:56, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I should have written that "hornets' nest" in the plural, because Wikidata is starting to give me a headache on this.
Libertas sentiendi links to en:Freedom of thought and to fr:Liberté d'opinion, while
en:Freedom of opinion redirects to en:Freedom of speech which links to fr:Liberté d'expression and Libertas loquendi.
(Not to mention that the French Wiki also has an article fr:Liberté de pensée with a lonely interwiki link to en:Freedom of thought.)
Oh dear... Sigur (disputatio) 10:15, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some more thoughts:

Things seem to be clearer in the CCPR. There are two levels, what Catholic canonists would call the "forum internum" (inside your head) and the "forum externum" (external manifestation).

Article 18(1), first sentence, is a "forum internum" concept called "freedom of thought, conscience and religion".

All the rest of Article 18 is about the "forum externum", but only refers to "religion or belief".

Article 19(1) treats freedom of opinion (a "forum internum" concept).

The rest of Article 19 treats freedom of expression, the corresponding "forum externum" concept.

As to freedom of thought alone, one might understand it as synonym of freedom of thought, conscience and religion or as encompassing that and also freedom of opinion (i.e. both 'forum internum concepts). I don't think it is clearly defined.

As to where our existing articles go in that picture, that's a trickier issue. We have libertas loquendi, which is freedom of speech, but that's more restricted than freedom of expression (which e.g. also covers artistic expression of any kind). We don't have libertas opinionis (although, that might be libertas sentiendi, but the content doesn't really fit). The present article is probably intended to cover both aspects of Article 18. Arguably, we could have two articles for Article 19 (libertas opinionis and a perhaps revamped libertas loquendi). For Article 18, the "forum internum" article would be something like "libertas cogitationis, conscientiae ac religionis", but for other one (religion or belief), you would get greatly differing solutions depending on your source language (libertas religionis ac credendi from English or Spanish, libertas religionis ac persuasionis from French or Russian, and even libertas religionis ac cosmotheoriae from German). Given that we can't sensibly link all that to proper Wikidata items anyhow, we might as well stick to our two articles, but then we have to live with imperfect titles/lemmas. Sigur (disputatio) 11:27, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was Mattie who suggested Libertas sentiendi for "freedom of thought," and Morgan's list agrees (while giving other terms for "freedom of religion"). Whatever the lemma should be, the topic of "freedom of religion" is one of the 10,000 most important topics (see here), as is "freethought" (Cogitatio libera). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:14, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "Libertas credendi" might be OK for "freedom of belief," but it's inadequate to accommodate religion, which involves far more than mere believing: religion always includes behaviors and practices, and it often includes holy places, people, texts, and social organizations. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:14, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are about to convince me, that libertas religionis might be the least bad solution. Let's see whether others have something to say. In the same context, and given the majority of the articles I can understand linked to the relevant Wikidata items (which are not very coherent), I would also move libertas sentiendi to libertas cogitandi and libertas loquendi to libertas exprimendi (with some changes to the article - and I do have a source, even if it's a lonely one). That way, I think the whole complex will start to make a bit of sense. Sigur (disputatio) 14:45, 30 Novembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so unless there is a last-minute objection, before I go to sleep, it will be:

libertas religionis (hic)

libertas cogitandi (nunc libertas sentiendi)

libertas exprimendi (nunc libertas loquendi)

Sigur (disputatio) 16:52, 1 Decembris 2019 (UTC)[reply]