Disputatio:Cisarulana

Is "Vorarlberg" the correct name for this article? --Roland2 11:22, 8 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure if I've done the right thing moving the whole article, but everything can be reversed. --Harrissimo 20:59, 4 Iulii 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh, I dislike the new name "Vorarlburgum". This is definitely wrong! Vorarlberg < Vor + Arlberg, and Arlberg is the name of the mountain ("Berg") separating Vorarlberg from Tyrol. "Burg" would mean "castle", but there is definitely no castle involved here. Unless anyone finds a Latin source, I propose to move the page back to its German name "Vorarlberg". --UV 21:03, 4 Iulii 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any Latin name for the Arlberg, or for the district. I think we have to go back to the German name. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:18, 4 Iulii 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably right. I just wanted it to be declinable so I could add captions etc. without just having to call it regio(nis) or finding a longer way around. --Harrissimo 17:23, 5 Iulii 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unless... we decide to follow latinised suffixes, which would probably make this Vorarlberga (see Disputatio Vicipaediae:Translatio nominum propriorum) --Harrissimo 22:24, 16 Augusti 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found something. According to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlberg , Latin possibilities for Arlberg are Arle, Arlen, Mons Arili, Arlenperge. So it seems to me there are many possibilities: Ante Arlenperge, Arlenperge Anterior, Ante Monte Arili, and so forth. LionhardusCiampa 02:32, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oops! Ante Montem, Ante Arlenperges, etc. LionhardusCiampa 11:50, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really glad you found those names. I felt sure there must be some Latin form somewhere! My impression is that Arlenperge is maybe a close copy of an Old High German name (-perg for -berg is typical) rather than real Latin. Mons Arili looks more homely (to a Latinist), and I wonder whether someone (on de:wiki or its source) ought to have written Mons Arilis.

Latin uses prefixes like cis- and trans- to name provinces that were on one side, or the other side, of a geographical feature. It would be nice to find such a form. I just tried googling cisarili and transarili but no luck.

But I now see that an anonymous recent editor of the page has already used the form Cisarilia. Dare we take it that there's a source for it? Or did the anon. editor just make the same guess that I have? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:21, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German wiki has Mons Arili, but that should be checked somehow. --Alex1011 12:50, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how valid this is, but Arlenperge is more euphonious to me. And de.wiki gives that as well. My own gut feeling, rightly or wrongly? Arlenperge Anterior. My runner-up would be Ante Arlenperges. LionhardusCiampa 17:48, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Graesse has Aquilarum mons for "Arlberg", that means, Aquilarum mons citerior should be Vorarlberg. --Alex1011 19:31, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ante Auilarum montem scilicet regio might be better, because it is not a mountain, but an area in front of a mountain (or pass). It is the area which is cis the mount(ain pass) "Arlberg". --Alex1011 19:37, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citerior, or Anterior? (Citerior, isn't that a kind of mortadella?) LionhardusCiampa 20:41, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is Gallia citerior (or cisalpina) and Pomerania citerior (Vorpommern). --Alex1011 21:12, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, citerior or cis, which normally refer to position ("on this side", "this side of"), are more suitable than anterior or ante, which normally refer to time ("previous", "before"). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:56, 28 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Cis Arlenperges or Arlenperge Citerior(es) could be possibilities. LionhardusCiampa 01:20, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notate bene, though, that from among Arle, Arlen, Mons Arili, Arlenperge, only Mons Arili is Latin in form, while the other variants are forms of the (local, dialectal) German word Arle 'Latsche, pinus mugo'. (Arlenperge of course translates Mons Arili or the other way around.) Arle 'Latsche' is local, indeed, because in other ecological contexts the dialectal word Arle refers to 'Bergahorn, acer pseudoplatanus'. Graesse's Aquilarum mons is evidently based on a folk-etymological reinterpretation of the opaque word Arle, bespeaking the (false) belief that the place name had something to do with Adler 'aquila'. || Quae cum ita sint, Arlberg certe Mons Arili latine audit. Re Vorarlberg 'das Land vor dem Arlberg', I must say Cisarilia looks great to me. Se non è vero, è ben trovato! A more conservative form with inflectional possibilities would be Vorarlberga, and even more conservatively, Vorarlberg. To me, other proposals seem too cumbersome. --Neander 03:26, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support Cisarilia. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:29, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is a question of policy. If we follow a policy of attested names, we must use Graesse's mons aquilarum, wrong etymology not withstanding. (We cannot change the name of Saarbrücken only because some now claim the name has nothing to do with a Brücke.) Cisarilia might be good new Latin, but then we do not follow the policy of attestation. --Alex1011 09:32, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion about the policy of attestation is: (1) Latin names (all names) are coined by someone. I find it extremely appropriate if the "someone" should be us. It's not one random, haphazard person acting half-cocked. It's a consensus of very intelligent and educated individuals. (2) Notice Graesse often has 3, 4, 5 names for the same place. What, then, is the harm in our coining "Cisarilia"? Esp. since all one has to do is to read the above to see why we coined it. (3) As far as a "policy," to me that's simple: if no ancient Latin name can be found, and it's a major, important geographical area such as Vorarlberg (which I have had the privilege of driving through, en route from Innsbruck to Vaduz), then "someone" needs to call it "something." Again, I nominate us. LionhardusCiampa 11:07, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alex is quite right: policy is against Cisarilia unless we have an attestation for it. But I suspect we will have. A pity we didn't persuade Lee Gomes to print it in his WSJ article :) It is much neater than any other solution. Aware that nothing on Vicipaedia is engraved in stone, I would still be inclined to move to Cisarilia now, with a footnote asking for a citation. With luck, this will persuade the anon. editor, who first inserted it in the article, to supply a source. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:54, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For remembrance, here is our link: Vicipaedia:Translatio nominum propriorum. As a substitute for attested names we might also use attested methods of Latinisation of vernaculour names. --Alex1011 12:11, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at this, my friends! Harrissimo.

This confirms that both arula and aquilarum mons are possible candidates. Harrissimo.

Here and GoogleBook's version of Orbis Latinus also recommend Arula. I think we should discard arilia, there doesn't seem to be any source for it. Cisarula, Transarula? Harrissimo.

Great investigation! Following Gallia cisalpina or transpadana I would then take an adjective form: Cisarulana scilicet regio seu terra. --Alex1011 13:59, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree: I abandon Cisarilia. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:37, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great research, indeed. So, we don't need the faut-de-mieux proposal Cisarilia. Cisarulana is the name! Viribus consociatis ad consensum! (BTW, my guess is that arl-, arul-, aril- are all attempts to tackle with an underlying old Celtic name.) --Neander 19:42, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And it also seems to have the immense benefit of already existing. —Mucius Tever 22:18, 29 Septembris 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like Cisarulana the best. My creation Cisarilia ends in -ia, as if it would derive from a peole like Umbria. Arilus is a taxonome for insects, by the way. I’m very happy you found a nice name. —22:08, 13 Octobris 2007 (CET)

-ana or -a?

I came across a real citation for cisarula just now ({{Kirchenlatein}}). Should I move to the -a ending (Cisarula) or leave the (better?) adjectival one (Cisarulana)? Harrissimo 03:17, 22 Decembris 2007 (UTC).[reply]

More than two years later ...

This seems to be an attestation from the 17th century: Probatica sacra Cisarulana : quam ... calamo fideli aperit et offert F. Lucianus Montifontanus Capucinus Provinciae Anterioris Austriae Sacerdos Indignus. - Constantiae : Hautt, 1674.--Utilo 20:18, 5 Augusti 2010 (UTC)[reply]