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:::::Well, then, going back to your comment at the start, I think you are exaggerating the extent to which "civitas" means "city" in classical -- even late classical -- Latin. Looking at ''[[Oxford Latin Dictionary]]'', which ought to be a very good source for Latin up to 200 AD, "Civitas=city" (sense 3b) is first recorded from Seneca, is not noted at all from Tacitus, and has the fewest citations overall. The largest number of citations are for senses 1 "an organized community, esp. that in which one lives or to which one belongs as a citizen, a state", and 4 "the rights of a citizen, citizenship ...". I believe it's true that this changed later, but most of us don't have such ready access to the dictionaries that would demonstrate it ...
:::::But we certainly do have the problem that the classical world was not a world of nation-states, and therefore the classical vocabulary in this area may sit uneasily in our modern writing. One reason why "civitas" came to be equated with "city", I guess, was that political philosophers had a habit of looking at classical Greece, where city and state were synonymous. Another reason, I guess, was that when western European tribal states were taken into the Roman Empire, "civitas" was used as a term for them (they had, after all, been independent), and it came to be equated with their capital cities: thus "civitas Turonum" meant not only the "state" of the Turones (i.e. Touraine), but also the "city" of the Turones (i.e. Tours) because it sort-of-embodied the state. <font face="Gill Sans">[[Usor:Andrew Dalby|Andrew]]<font color="green">[[Disputatio Usoris:Andrew Dalby| Dalby]]</font></font> 09:51, 18 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
::::::The Vulgate, which reflects popular 4th century Latin, fairly consistently uses 'civitas' for city of any sort. Urbs on the few occasions where it occurs seems to refer to something rather smaller - an oppidum, perhaps. Interestingly, on the two occasions where the NT talks of 'commonwealth' or 'citizenship' (Gk politeuma), Jezza translates it as "conversatio". The Vatican is BTW never referred to as urbs vaticana, and Urbs, standing alone means the city of Rome. [[Specialis:Conlationes/82.36.94.228|82.36.94.228]] 11:47, 19 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
 
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