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Emendatio ex 15:00, 14 Augusti 2009

Haec est taberna Vicipaediae ubi potes si dubia habes, explanationes quaerere, nuntia ad nos mittere et cetera.
Ut sententias antiquiores legas vide tabernae acta priora.

Quaestio nova

Compendia

VP:T

30,000

Admodum difficile est numerare, sed credo no. 30,000 Prigg v. Pennsylvania‎ fuisse ...! Andrew Dalby 17:29, 31 Iulii 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hurray!--Rafaelgarcia 14:23, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Market Garden

Avete!

I would like to write a page about the Operation Market Garden (Sept. 1944) but I need a bit of help. First, I have some doubts about the title for I don't know how I can translate "Operation" to Latin. Then, I was not able to find a Latin word in Vicipaedia standing for "paratrooper". One last thing: I was wondering if you could tell me a Latin translation standing for "Airborne Division". Thank you. Alexander Gelsumis 12:08, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

operation = operatio

paratrooper = miles deciduus (sec LRL)

airborne divisio = divisio aërea--Rafaelgarcia 14:27, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vel 'operation' = expeditio (a term that recently came up in discussion somewhere else). Vide etiam Cassell's: "in war, to draw up a plan of [operation]s, rei gerendae ordinem componere, totius belli rationem describere. For 'operation', the first of these phrases might give us res gerenda, or maybe merely res, a useful catch-all. IacobusAmor 14:36, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think by an operation here is meant a smaller, limited series of actions that prepared the way for an expeditio (campaign or expedition); specifically it was an airborne assault to secure some key bridges.--24.183.186.151 17:17, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, maybe incursio or incursus would fit. IacobusAmor 19:41, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC).[reply]

I could be wrong, but I think the latin term means when the soldiers "run in" at the enemy; and the second meaning "incusion" (like in english) means a temporary running in (and out) to accomplish some limited goal. Neither quite describe this even which was more of a coordinated "dropping in" or a "delapsus". I don't think we should worry about using a vague "operatio" since the military context will of the term is pretty clear.--Rafaelgarcia 21:30, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thank you all for helping me. The title of the page will be Operatio Market Garden. Si novas et alias rationes habetis, spero vos scripturos. Avete et salvete.--Alexander Gelsumis 17:45, 2 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Translatio

Salvete!

Potestisne, quaeso, me adiuvare ad latinandum hunc textum?

Anglice: During the first years of the Viceroyalty, the art was exclusively for religious, and its usage was mainly for the purpose of evangelization. The city of Lima had a main role in the development of the colonial art. The fast urban growth, the encomenderos' accumulation of wealth and the construction of both temples and churches were the causes for the request for paintings and sculptures from the main Spanish cities. The artworks preferred were those form Flanders and Italy, although those from Seville and Andalusia were also requested.

Hispanice: El arte durante los primeros años virreinales fue exclusividad de los religiosos y su uso tuvo un fin práctico principalmente en el adoctrinamiento. La ciudad de Lima jugó un rol preponderante en el desarrollo del arte en el virreinato del Perú. Su rápido crecimiento urbano, la acumulación de riqueza por parte de los encomenderos y la construcción de templos e iglesias fueron motivos para la demanda de pinturas y esculturas de las principales ciudades de los reinos españoles. Especial preferencia se tuvo por las obras provenientes de Flandes e Italia, aunque las obras sevillanas y andaluzas tuvieron igualmente gran demanda.

Gratias vobis prius ago!!--Le K@l!^nuntia? 04:43, 4 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph

De: "photographus=photographer; photographema = photograph)"—Yet the quaerere box shows that the commonest Latin term for 'photograph' is photographia. For example:

Laurence Olivier, 1939, photographia a Carolo van Vechten capta.

Haec photographia est facta cum pellicula primumHaec photographia est facta cum pellicula primum

Photographia ab aeroplano U-2 speculatorio anno 1962 capta

Viator 1 . . . planetae Jovis hanc photographiam 24º die Januarii amplius 40 miliones chilometrorum distans cepit.

Saturni anuli, secundum Cassinio-Hugeniae photographiam anno 2007

Numerosa telescopia planetae collineata, seu professionalia seu studiosa, photographias ceperunt

Do lexica Neo-Latina disagree about this? And if telegraphare produces telegramma, why wouldn't photographare produce photogramma? IacobusAmor 11:53, 4 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The latinity of many of our pages, especially our astronomy pages, leave a lot to be desired. The lexica neolatina give photographia = photography or photographic artwork; photographus=photographer, photographema = photograph (as in snap shot or picture photograph). So unless one is talking about photo-like painting, or snazzy artistic photography (see en:Fine art photography) one should say photographema.--Rafaelgarcia 14:57, 4 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then someone should fix the (two dozen or so?) articles in which photographia means 'a photograph'; so far, only five articles have photographema. IacobusAmor 13:54, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Photographema cannot be. The class of nouns ending '-ma, -matos' in Greek, representing the result of effect of the action of the verb, fit this ending directly onto the present stem. 'Grapho' is a consonant stem verb, so the noun created is graphma, which becomes, by assimilation, gramma, as Professor Love has noted. An 'e' stem verb such as phoneo produces the noun 'phonema'. There is however, no verb 'grapheo' as far as I know. We ought therefore to be talking about a 'photogramma'.82.36.94.228 20:31, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is an interesting philological question. I don't know the answer, but of one thing is no doubt, the attestation that photographema=photograph. Aside from several lexica, I just found one original source from 1887 [here with hardly any trouble.

Apparently sometimes graphema can occur see es:grafema is spanish for en:grapheme--Rafaelgarcia 20:52, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Googling turns up many hundreds of attestations of photogramma and photogrammata, including a pertinent one here: Commentaria in Aristotelem graeca. IacobusAmor 21:49, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good find! --Neander 22:03, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grapheme, morpheme, toneme, even behavioreme, has been formed on the analogy of phoneme in the heydays of linguistic structuralism. Usor 82.36.94.228 has a point, but the point is somewhat weakened by the fact that analogy tends to play an important role in word-formation (not just sound laws). On the other hand, I can't say I'm fond of "photographema", either ... --Neander 21:33, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And choreology has given us kineme. :) IacobusAmor 21:49, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah no. Kineo and morpheo are 'e' stem verbs in Greek so kinema and morphema are the regular developments. Kineme is, of course, a philological doublet of cinema. The rubicund professor Dawkins, has, as is well known, coined the term "meme", but even he has acknowledged that philologically it should really be 'mimeme'. 82.36.94.228 15:00, 14 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK now it gets more interesting. We have it turns out a photogramma page, started by Avitus, but it is translating "Film frame" (spanish: es:fotograma, italian it:Fotogramma. So apparently photogramma means more of a microfiche type of photograph that is part of a series of them intended to be viewed together as a collage or movie.--Rafaelgarcia 22:43, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One might wonder what's Avitus's source (except for Romance languages). Iacobus found at least one textual locus (above) which scarcely refers to a frame. --Neander 00:19, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might if it they are refering to microfilm or microfiche frames, where each frame contains a different page of the manuscript. Remember those are like movies.--Rafaelgarcia 00:32, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anglice: confederate vs. federal

According to Cassell's, the only suitable noun for 'confederacy' is foedus, ergo per Bellum Civile Americanum the Confederacy—the confederated states, Civitates Confoederatae—could be the Foedus; however, troops of the United States—the federated states, Civitates Foederatae—were then called 'federal troops' (as they still are): so during the civil war we seem have copiae Foederis 'Confederate troops' being opposed by copiae foederati '(con)federal troops'. Is there a way out of this confusion? ¶ Caesar has societatem belli facere 'to form a confederacy of war' or perhaps 'to make a military alliance', but using societas for the Confederacy doesn't seem natural, at least to a native English-speaker. IacobusAmor 13:04, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The concepts of a federal union and a confederation were not present in Roman times, these are a new senses for these terms taken from medieval and neo latin.

You also have to keep in mind that Confederate and Federal in these cases refer to proper names. So you have to go with what the countries are called. Here you should call confedrate troops copiae confederati since here confederati refers to the Confedratae Civitates rather than to the Foederatae Civitates.

By the way this issue has some bearing on why some people call the united states the Civitates Unitae Americae rather than Civitates Foederatae Americae. Here in Vicipaedia, we decided to go with the oldest attested term, that used by Francis Glass in his biography of Georgius Washingtonius.--Rafaelgarcia 13:16, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ergo, according to Cassell's, Switzerland is called Foedus Helveticum? I think the well-attested term Confoederatio Helvetica makes it legitimate to use confoederatio in America, too. We already have Civitates Confoederatae Americae anyway. Gabriel Svoboda 13:26, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An internet search shows that Foedus Helveticum is well attested, in texts and on coins. For Switzerland, I don't know which term has priority (and so may be said to be preferable), but the absence of confoederatio from Cassell's suggests that, unlike foedus, it's a postclassical term. Nevertheless, for the Confederacy, I'm happy with Confoederatio if others are; I'll fix the text now, adopting Rafael's suggestions above. The obvious Latin back-formation from English 'Confederacy' would be Confoederatia (-ae, f.), but it would presumably make our modern Latin-speaking public unhappy. IacobusAmor 13:49, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The con in confederatio, suggests the meaning "leaguing together" as opposed to just "leaguing", so these are hardly very different things. Confederatio one would suppose by rights would be a special kind of federatio, where the treaty of union emphasizes some unique aspect about how they are united together, perhaps the equalness of the unions, perhaps something else, maybe just to emphasize togetherness. In the case of the CCA, the union preserves the right of each party to leave the union; in the case of switzerland, I believe it must have been the idea of togetherness, for in fact the 1848 constitution which provides the name Confederatio Helvetica is a federal one , mimicking the US system, as described here [1] . In the end though, Conf. Helvetica just a proper name.--Rafaelgarcia 17:04, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The continuing saga: remarkably postposed forms of esse

"Communitas Castellae et Legionis (Hispanice: Comunidad de Castilla y León ; Legionice: Castiella y Llión ; Gallaice: Castela e León ; Extremaduriane: Castilla i Lión) communitas autonoma Hispaniae, creata anno 1983 et Septemtrionali oropedii media regione in Paeninsula Hiberica, est." IacobusAmor 13:58, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quid est symbola?

Secundum Cassell's, symbola est 'a contribution of money to a common feast'. But that can't be what it means here: "Computing machinery and intelligence est symbola ab Alano Turing scripta." So it's something written, and the italics imply that it's a book, a play, or an exceedingly long poem. (If it's an article, it would be set roman, inside double quotes.) It's presumably not the plural of symbolum 'sign, token, symbol; creed'. So what is it? IacobusAmor 14:34, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it is a neolatin word meaning "journal article" derived from the first meaning above, widening the sense of "contribution", contribution to a discussion... I have seen it other places too, but all modern. Such terms deserve their own article explaining them.--Rafaelgarcia 16:24, 8 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, Iacobus and his ruthless servant, Cassell's, provide food for thought. As Rafael surmises, basically rightly I think, symbola '(scientific) article' is a metaphorical extension of the meaning 'a contribution of money to a common feast'. But I'd like to add a few precisations. Basically, symbola < Gk. συμβολή (compositional meaning:) 'a throwing together', has nothing to suggest feast or money. As such, symbola denotes a contribution; 'feast' and 'money' come from the context, which was sympotic (or perhaps in better English, symposiac) in nature. An ancient symposium (< Gk. συμπόσιον 'a drinking together') consisted not just in heavy drinking (witness Plato's Symposium) but also in philosophically and scientifically pertinent contributions to common themes (witness Plato's Symposium, again). This is also the context of symbola, as has been told by Gellius (7.13): according to him, symbolae were scientific contributions to a sympotic picnic of learned men. /// One may have wondered, why, in nowadays symposia, there's less drinking than scientific contributions. Well, a semiotician might call that markedness reversal. Nowadays, symbolae, as contributions and output of scientific symposia, are often published within a single cover, consisting of various contributions or articles on a more of less connected scientific theme. This is, I guess, the etymological background of symbola as an article in a scientific journal, Festschrift, or collection of papers; notice that symbola is indeed a scientific paper in contradistinction to commentatio and the like, which are apt to denote newspaper articles and the like. Examples of this modern use are Symbolae Osloenses; see also this list. Both Morgan and Pitkäranta have symbola '(scientific) article'. --Neander 12:26, 9 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Jutland

Avete, Vicipaediani.

Scribere de pugna navalis a.D. 1916 gesta in Mare Germanico Orientali vellem sed nonnulla dubia habeo de nomine huius proelii. Pars Orientalis et Septentrionalis nominibus diversis appellata est, in exemplum: * Danice Jylland, Germanice Jütland vel Skagerrak, Anglice Jutland, Latine Cimbria vel Iutlandia vel Iutia; ex quo satis haesitans ad vestras rationes seu opiniones legendas morari malo. Puto via et ratione bonum esse titulum "Pugna navalis Iutlandensis (1916)" at spero vos me adiuvaturos. Curate ut valeatis, hoc Alexander Gelsumis vobis iubet.

Sign Language

Quis scit nomen latinum pro sign language? In pagina surditas, nullo fonte invento lingua chironomicascripsi, sed aequaliter lingua gesticularia patere potest.--Rafaelgarcia 18:01, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lingua gesticulatoria apud Pitkäranta. --Neander 19:44, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gratias!--Rafaelgarcia 19:47, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Supongo que 'to sign' = signum dare, vel etiam significare. Et 'signing' ergo = significatio, et 'sign language' = lingua signata—vel fortasse lingua manuum. Sed gesticulari = 'to make pantomimic gestures', and sign language is NOT pantomimic. IacobusAmor 19:52, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

De signo, credo sensum idem ac "sign"="hand gestures" admodum remotum esse. De verbo gesticulor, recte dicis, primum sensum esse "pantomimimic gesture", sed alterus sensus est simpliciter "gesticulate" secundum L&S "to gesticulate (perhaps not anteAug.; cf.: gestum agere, Cic. de Or. 2, 57, 233):"--Rafaelgarcia 20:13, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Despite of the world-wide authority and paragonality of English, "sign language" is not too felicitous an expression, the simple reason being that every natural language consists in and of signs. If you don't believe me, ask Saussure. :–) --Neander 21:10, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tell it to the French (Langue des signes)! and the Spanish (Lengua de señas)! and the Italians (Lingua dei segni)! IacobusAmor 03:21, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If someone approached a Roman and asked Scisne linguam signorum?, he would think you were talking about augury or perhaps about the manner in which battle standards or household statues are made.

Significatio on the other hand, does have closer meanings to "sign" in the sense of an action conveying a meaning (making signals and meanings is something ordinary people do, an action, including gestures). As Neander points out, lingua significationum (the language of meanings and indications), which would then be a very literal translation of "sign language", is not very illuminating as to the actual intended meaning ipso facto.

Indeed, even in modern languages the use of "sign language" to mean "communication through gestures" is so roundabout, that you have to wonder how it came about. I venture it came about because of the use of flags in intership naval communication with semaphore. Via the analogy with signing a message between ships can signing between people is understood, even when no flags are used.--Rafaelgarcia 10:21, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not as roundabout as all that, perhaps. "Sign", a loanword from French in early middle English, had as its earliest English sense "a meaningful gesture with the hand" (text of 1225 cited in OED, a monastic rule; signs were permitted in this particular rule to avoid the necessity for speech). And so the first user of the phrase sign language in English was building on a real major sense of the English word. (According to OED this first user was apparently an American author of 1847, writing in [American Annals of the Deaf and Dumb.) However, this wasn't the main meaning of the French word, or of the original Latin word, hence our difficulty ... Andrew Dalby 12:07, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is an elegant etymological explanation! The term sign language has come about as a motivated colligation, no doubt about that, and everyday routinisation has blocked compositional re-interpretations (esp. by native speakers). When referring to the paragonality of English, I was (rightly or wrongly) surmising that langue des signes, lengua de señas, lingua dei segni, etc may be word-by-word translations of sign language. --Neander 22:55, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Autonomus, -a, um

Is there a good reason to use the adjective autonomus, -a, um, rather than liber, -a, -um and sui iuris, the Classical equivalents of (English) 'autonomous'? The searchbox says that autonoma already appears in eighty-four articles; the masculine form, not so much (only five). Is autonomus, -a,-um a thoughtless bit of leakage from Romance? or do we have Classical precedents for it? IacobusAmor 12:49, 14 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't classical but it doesn't mean that it should be disgarded...Autonomus is an important term with distinct political, moral and technical meanings. In politics, it means a pagus that sets its own laws and bugdet internally, but its foreign affairs are managed by a distinct sovereign state; like the vasque country. That is neither liber nor sui iuris. Autonomus is also applied to ianimate objects (automotons) or programs or any other mechanism that functions independently (based on an internally set algorithm). In philosophy autonomy (being autonomus) means having the power to be indepedent (autonomus=self-mind); indepedence is exercising that power (non depedence actually). Both concepts presume libertas and being sui iuris, which are legal-political terms; autonomus and independens instead are distinctions that apply in philosophical, technical, work, or moral spheres.--Rafaelgarcia 14:21, 14 Augusti 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Linea 46: / Linea 46: @@
 ::::::: ''Grapheme, morpheme, toneme'', even ''behavioreme'', has been formed on the analogy of ''phoneme'' in the heydays of linguistic structuralism. Usor 82.36.94.228 has a point, but the point is somewhat weakened by the fact that analogy tends to play an important role in word-formation (not just sound laws). On the other hand, I can't say I'm fond of "photographema", either ... --[[Usor:Neander|Neander]] 21:33, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
 ::::::::And choreology has given us ''kineme.'' :) [[Usor:IacobusAmor|IacobusAmor]] 21:49, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
+::::::::::Ah no. Kineo and morpheo are 'e' stem verbs in Greek so kinema and morphema are the regular developments. Kineme is, of course, a philological doublet of cinema. The rubicund professor Dawkins, has, as is well known, coined the term "meme", but even he has acknowledged that philologically it should really be 'mimeme'. [[Specialis:Conlationes/82.36.94.228|82.36.94.228]] 15:00, 14 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
 :::::::::OK now it gets more interesting. We have it turns out a [[photogramma]] page, started by Avitus, but it is translating "Film frame" (spanish: [[:es:fotograma]], italian [[:it:Fotogramma]]. So apparently photogramma means more of a microfiche type of photograph that is part of a series of them intended to be viewed together as a collage or movie.--[[Usor:Rafaelgarcia|Rafaelgarcia]] 22:43, 12 Augusti 2009 (UTC)
 :::::::::: One might wonder what's Avitus's source (except for Romance languages). Iacobus found at least one textual locus (above) which scarcely refers to a frame. --[[Usor:Neander|Neander]] 00:19, 13 Augusti 2009 (UTC)