Disputatio:Lingua Sinensis

Non simplicius Lingua Mandarinica dicatur?--173.70.154.122 00:57, 1 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... Cf. paginas Anglicas en:Mandarin Chinese (Guānhuà, familia dialectorum Mandarinicarum) et en:Standard Mandarin (Pǔtōnghuà, dialectus publica Sinarum, quae Pechinensis est). Haec pagina per nexum intervicium nectit ad en:Mandarin Chinese, ergo non "lingua Mandarinica" sed fortasse (si nomen 'Sinensis' removendum est) "linguae Mandarinicae". (Sed articulum quem habemus tractat dialectum Pechinensem, itaque fortasse debet nectere ad en:Standard Mandarin...) —Mucius Tever 05:40, 1 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

Est quod nescio quomodo verbum "Sinensis" adiuvat nos dicere quod dialecti Mandarinici multo inter se discrepant...Habemus quoque paginam nomine singulari lingua Sinica quae et plures dialectos continet. Quapropter conclusio tua non sequi videtur.

Pro lingua normalis ("standard"), possumus habere paginam nomine lingua Mandarinica normalis. Quid sentis vel sentiunt omnes?--173.70.154.122 08:00, 1 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for slipping into English -- I'll go back to Latin if anyone wants. Let's notice that the English page "Mandarin Chinese", although that's its title, is rather deprecating about the use of the term "Mandarin" in that sense: the page says, roughly, that most ordinary people intend "Putonghua/Standard Mandarin" when they use the term Mandarin, and only linguists use the term "Mandarin" to mean "dialects of northern and southwestern China". And, I would add, not all linguists.

As anon suggests above, I think we might use "Lingua Mandarinica" for "Standard Mandarin". [Added: I wouldn't object to adding "normalis" -- I just think it's scarcely necessary.] The point about the name "Mandarin" -- if we accept it as non-POV -- is that it associates the language with the scholars/administrators, who always focused on the standard language of Beijing. To use the term "Mandarin" for a set of regional dialects is a misnomer, really.

But we also need terms for the larger sets:

1. what en:wiki currently calls "Mandarin Chinese", i.e. the set of northern and southwestern dialects and including Standard Mandarin; for this we might use Lingua Sinensis (currently a redirect)
2. what en:wiki currently calls "Chinese language" (currently our Lingua Sinica), i.e. all of the above and also the southern and eastern Chinese languages or dialects. Since these are widely agreed to be languages and not dialects, we might consider moving that page to Linguae Sinicae. Andrew Dalby 12:04, 1 Iulii 2010 (UTC)

Latin books on chinese

Linguae Sinarum Mandarinicae hieroglyphicae grammatica duplex, Latinè, et cum characteribus Sinensium: item Sinicorum Regiae Bibliothecae librorum catalogus, denuò, cum notitiis amplioribus et charactere Sinico, editus jussu Ludovici decimi quinti  By Etienne Fourmont

http://books.google.com/books?id=4II-AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hH3bUL-8KIuO0QHrpYHIAQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBzgK

Lingua Sinarum mandarinicae hieroglyphicae grammatica duplex, Latine et cum characteribus Sinensium. Item Sinicorum regiae bibliothecae librorum catalogus By Étienne Fourmont

http://books.google.com/books?id=1EBMAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinarum+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E3_bUK71IojX0QHP7oHYDQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ

Athanasii Kircheri ... Oedipi Aegyptiaci: Theatrum hieroglyphicum ..., Volume 3 By Athanasius Kircher

http://books.google.com/books?id=pDK2CF_y2nkC&pg=PA10&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R37bUNTpLo6J0QHs0YHQAg&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=sinicae%20linguae&f=false

Hebdomas Observationum De Rebus Sinicis: I. Epitome Historiae Sinicae, antiquissimae iuxta ac recentissimae. II. De Notitia Evangelii in Sinis per secula N. T. III. Elenchus Regum Sinicorum. IV. Iconismus Plantae laudatissimae, Ginseng dictae. V. Memorabilis Planetarum Synodus. VI. Specimen Commentarii Geographici. VII. Hebdomadicam dierum Distributionem, eorumque Denominationem a Planetis desumtam, etiam Sinis ab olim usitatam fuisse  By Andreas Müller

http://books.google.com/books?id=5gdHAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT175&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R37bUNTpLo6J0QHs0YHQAg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBDgU

Museum sinicum, in quo sinicae linguae et litteraturae ratio ..., Volume 1 By Gottlieb Siegfried Bayer

http://books.google.com/books?id=JqsPAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA

Gottlieb Sigefr. Bayeri Museum Sinicum ...: in quo Sinicae Linguae ..., Volume 1 By Theophilus Siegfried Bayer

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fq1FAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ

Theophili Sigefridi Bayeri ... Museum Sinicum: in quo sinicae linguae et litteraturae ratio explicatur ; Tomus secundus, Lexicon sinicum et diatribas sinicas comprehendit  By Theophilus Sigefridus Bayer, Typographia Academiae Imperatoriae (San Petersburgo)

http://books.google.com/books?id=AB04P0ddM1kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg

Theophili Sigefridi Bayeri ... Museum sinicum in quo sinicae linguae et litteraturae ratio explicatur: tomus primus ...  By Theophilus Sigefridus Bayer, Tipografía de la Cademia (San Petersburgo )

http://books.google.com/books?id=45axTyZlNE8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw

Meditationes Sinicae By Étienne Fourmont

http://books.google.com/books?id=5EBMAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Meditationes Sinicae: in quibus 1. consideratur Linguae Philosophicae atque Universalis Natura qualis esse, aut debeat, aut possit. 2. Lingua Sinarum Mandarinica, tum in Hieroglyphis tum in Monosyllabis suis ... ostenditur. 3. Datur eorumdem Hieroglyphorum, ac Monosyllaborum, atque inde Characterum Linguae Sinicae omnium, quamvis innumerabilium, et lectio et intellectio, seu Ars legendi et itelligendi tota, qualis Pekimi ab ipsis Doctoribus Sinis traditur. 4. Idque omne, progressu a libris mere Europaeis (de Sinica tamen) ad libros mere Sinicos, facto By Etienne Fourmont

http://books.google.com/books?id=A3ETAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ

Meditationes Sinicae, in quibus I. consideratur linguae philosophicae atque universalis natura II. Lingua Sinarum Mandarinica tum in hieroglyphi tum in monosyllabis huis (etc.)  By Etienne Fourmont

http://books.google.com/books?id=gL9MAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw

De horis Sinicis et cyclo horario commentationes: accedit eiusdem auctoris parergon Sinicum de calendariis Sinicis ubi etiam quaedam in doctrina temporum Sinica emendantur  By Theophilus Sigefridus Bayer

http://books.google.com/books?id=PGIoAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sinicae+linguae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V3zbUIqjIvCB0QGP6oDIDQ&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=sinicae%20linguae&f=false

Rajmaan (disputatio) 22:51, 26 Decembris 2012 (UTC)