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Emendatio ex 14:25, 31 Decembris 2011

Noli Fingere!

I freely translated coming out of the closet as vestiario exire on the basis that a few other languages have also translated the expression literally. For instance:

ca: Sortida de l'armari
cy: Dod allan (literally "coming out")
es: Salir del armario
no: Komme ut av skapet
pt: Sair do armário
sv: Komma ut ur garderoben

There's also "sortir du placard" in Canadian French. Feel free to debate this, anyway (a case could be made that more languages stick to the English coming out than not), but this is my justification for having fingere'd! Mattie 03:56, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Off the top of my head, I'd say it's a fusing of two concepts: "coming out" was what a debutante did when she was presented to the public at her first season (she didn't come out of a closet: she just plain came out); the closet is a different idea, which has gotten tacked onto the coming-out idea. Of course facts could prove this supposition wrong, but that's my story, and I'm sticking with it for the rest of the year. IacobusAmor 04:13, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And if my story is right (that the basic term is coming out), the closet shouldn't be in the lemma, as indeed it isn't in the wiki in the language from which the expression comes. So that leaves you with merely Exire. Whether that's idiomatic perhaps Neander will advise. IacobusAmor 04:43, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I thought of that, but a simple exire isn't very descriptive. IMO, it's either "exire vestiario" or something else altogether. Mattie 04:50, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Despite not being "very descriptieve," it suffices in English; why not then in Latin? IacobusAmor 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, en: reads "Coming out (of the closet) is..." – so it more or less is in the lemma. Mattie 04:53, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To match that form exactly, the Latin should be "Exire (ex vestiario)." The lemma is just plain exire ; the parenthesis, by citing a notion that's almost never specified in English speech, clarifies it. IacobusAmor 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

en:Coming out#"Coming out" applied to non-LGBT contexts does back up your point, though. Mattie 04:54, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The adjective [closet] is from 1680s, "private, secluded;" meaning "secret, unknown" recorded from 1952, first of alcoholism, but by 1970s used principally of homosexuality; the phrase come out of the closet "admit something openly" first recorded 1963, and lent new meanings to the word out. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=closet Mattie 05:05, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In case it's usful, the Oxford English Dictionary cites "come out ... of the closet" first in 1963 (Sylvia Plath -- context not clear to me); "come out" first in 1968 (Toronto Globe -- apparently recording what was already a current expression); "closet" as an adjective in this specific sense first in 1967 in the phrase "closet queen" (Winston Churchill [nepos, I guess]). The OED does not make a historical connection between this sense of "come out" and the débutante sense. [But by saying this I don't mean to say Iacobus's story is wrong. The OED, reliable source though it may be, can also be wrong!] Andrew Dalby 12:29, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since the OED has decided that "come out of the closet" is the earliest form, its methods don't allow it to make a closetless etymological connection, do they? Meanwhile, I've been racking my brain, but no recollection of when I first heard the phrase comes to mind. What's quite certain, however, is that the closet isn't ordinarily part of the idiom. Perhaps Plath in 1963 needed to add the closet so as to make the phrase more intelligible to less informed readers? IacobusAmor 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Transgender

According to :en:,

Transsexualism is often included within the broader category of transgenderism, which is generally used as an umbrella term for people who do not conform to typical accepted gender roles, for example cross-dressers, drag queens, and people who identify as genderqueer. Transsexualism refers to a specific condition in the transgender realm. Thus, even though a crossdresser and transsexual are both transgender people, their conditions differ radically. Though some people use transgenderism and transsexualism interchangeably, they are not synonymous terms.

Where our article says "transsexualitas," it should really say "transgender" (or transperson if you're Norwegian/Swedish). Any idea how that would be said in Latin? Mattie 19:25, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see! If we've borrowed homophylophilia from modern Greek, why not borrow another term from English? My suggestion: transgenderismus. "Transgenus" &c look morphologically awkward and, semantically, forbiddingly ambiguous. ¶ Swedish transperson is very handy in everyday speech, but as a social-psychological category, it may be too close to transpersonal psychology which doesn't investigate psychological states of "transpersons". Neander 21:39, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree on transgenus. But wouldn't something like transgenerismus be more correct than with the English D? Mattie 21:51, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What bothers me in transgenerismus is that it looks like having been derived either from gener 'son-in-law' (lectio facilior), or from genus (lectio difficilior). This is forbiddingly ambiguous, methinks, given that also genus is a semantically loaded term. Why do you feel transgenderismus objectionable? After all Vicipaedia has taken quite a lot of loans from English. Also Italian has borrowed transgenderismo. Neander 23:08, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Italian will eagerly borrow anything that's English =) As for the rest, let me get back to you in four years once I have my major in linguistics and actually know what I'm talking about! :D Kidding. I'd argue that the meaning of genus in transgenerismus is obvious, given the trans- which any modern reader will understand. I'll also point to the French transgenre to back up my suggestion. As for why transgenderismus is objectionable, this may sound silly, but the -end- in the middle just really doesn't look Latin to me. (Apart from the gerunds, what Latin words have that letter combination? Maybe I've had too much wine, but I can't think of many - not in the middle of a long word like that.) Not to mention I don't see the point of borrowing from English, when the word we're borrowing from has Latin origins (trans- and gener- and -ismus) which can easily be constructed in a 'purer' Latin form, i.e. as transgenerismus. Mattie 04:43, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If a French word has the power to back a suggestion up, we might want to remember that the English word (with a dee in it) comes from an earlier-attested French word, gendre. :) IacobusAmor 14:13, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Say, why

Say, why is it Exire instead of Evenire ? IacobusAmor 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Linea 17: / Linea 17: @@
 ::::::''The adjective [closet] is from 1680s, "private, secluded;" meaning "secret, unknown" recorded from 1952, first of alcoholism, but by 1970s used principally of homosexuality; the phrase ''come out of the closet'' "admit something openly" first recorded 1963, and lent new meanings to the word ''out''.'' http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=closet [[Usor:Mattie|Mattie]] 05:05, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
 :::::::In case it's usful, the ''Oxford English Dictionary'' cites "come out ... of the closet" first in 1963 ([[Sylvia Plath]] -- context not clear to me); "come out" first in 1968 (Toronto Globe -- apparently recording what was already a current expression); "closet" as an adjective in this specific sense first in 1967 in the phrase "closet queen" (Winston Churchill [nepos, I guess]). The OED does not make a historical connection between this sense of "come out" and the débutante sense. [But by saying this I don't mean to say Iacobus's story is wrong. The ''OED'', reliable source though it may be, can also be wrong!] <font face="Gill Sans">[[Usor:Andrew Dalby|Andrew]]<font color="green">[[Disputatio Usoris:Andrew Dalby| Dalby]]</font></font> 12:29, 30 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
-::::::::Since the OED has decided that "come out of the closet" is the earliest form, its methods don't ''allow'' it to make a closetless connection, do they? Meanwhile, I've been racking my brain, but no recollection of when I first heard the phrase comes to mind. What's quite certain, however, is that the closet isn't ordinarily part of the idiom. Perhaps Plath in 1963 needed to ''add'' the closet so as to make the phrase more intelligible to less informed readers? [[Usor:IacobusAmor|IacobusAmor]] 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
+::::::::Since the OED has decided that "come out of the closet" is the earliest form, its methods don't ''allow'' it to make a closetless etymological connection, do they? Meanwhile, I've been racking my brain, but no recollection of when I first heard the phrase comes to mind. What's quite certain, however, is that the closet isn't ordinarily part of the idiom. Perhaps Plath in 1963 needed to ''add'' the closet so as to make the phrase more intelligible to less informed readers? [[Usor:IacobusAmor|IacobusAmor]] 14:23, 31 Decembris 2011 (UTC)
 == Transgender ==