Disputatio:UNESCO

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Nomen: "Societas Educativa, Scientifica, et Culturalis Consocietatis Nationum"[fontem recensere]

Nonne est solitus verborum Latinorum ordo "Educativa, Scientifica, et Culturalis Consocietatis Nationum Societas"? IacobusAmor 13:54, 17 Decembris 2008 (UTC)

Anno 2010 UNESCO ad nomen praesens, quod attestatione caret, mutata est. Nonne esset melius, si sigla UNESCO mansissent verbis Anglicis ac interpretatione Latina additis?--Utilo (disputatio) 19:31, 19 Novembris 2012 (UTC)
Est "Provocatio ad societatem cultui humanitatique provehendis - UNESCO - ut linguae latina et graeca recipiantur in patrimonium omnium gentium” anni MMXI - recentissima quidem sed tamen nominis attestatio! - Societas cultui humanitatique provehendis (nationum consociatarum)?--Utilo (disputatio) 22:00, 26 Novembris 2012 (UTC)
UN apud Vicipaediam Consociatio Nationum appellari solet, non Consocietas Nationum, ut hoc in titulo.--Utilo (disputatio) 12:40, 1 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Censeo ego nomen usitatissimum huius societatis, in multis linguis receptum, Unesco esse. Si id nomen breve (Latine indecl.) seligimus, difficultates conversionis evitamus. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:35, 2 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Si et alii consentiunt: Quomodo "technice" fieri potest? Habemus redirectionem ab Unesco et multos nexus ad titulum praesentem.--Utilo (disputatio) 22:00, 2 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Si movere nobis placet, magistratus (e.g. ego!) potest eam redirectionem delere. Quid dicunt alii? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 22:04, 2 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Nemine contradicente movi. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:48, 10 Decembris 2012 (UTC)

pacem cum spiritu virium et mulierium constiture[fontem recensere]

Sententiam rescripsi (pacem virorum cum mulieribus constitutere); si auctoris intentionem ac fontis ingnotae significationem tetigi, nescio.--Utilo (disputatio) 12:38, 1 Decembris 2012 (UTC)

Salve, Utilo. Sententia de qua dicis est sola interpretatio mea verbi "Construire la paix dans l'esprit des hommes et des femmes" visu paginam primam situs publici[1] Unesco Francogallice. Volo meliorationem res, si possum. Bona venia.--LilyKitty (disputatio) 11:59, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Fortasse: Pacem in consilio hominum et mulierum condere. Sed quid vere significat "l'esprit des hommes et des femmes"? Cur non = consilium/sententia/voluntas omnium (hominum)? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:16, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Mais dans ce cas "hommes" précise le genre (nous le savons seulement parce que le prochain mot est "femmes"). Ergo, Latine ad pedem litterarum "Pacem in consilio virorum et mulierum condere". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:03, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Salve, IacobusAmor et Andrew, garatiam ago de opinionibus. Credo eam expressionem meliorem. --LilyKitty (disputatio) 14:22, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
May I reiterate the question in English: why is it necessary to specify (in French) "in the spirit of men & women" instead of "in the spirit of all people"? Why must the sexes be stated? And what does the phrase mean? What kind of spirit is it that's shared by men & women and is worth mentioning as such but is not otherwise worth defining ? This is the puzzlement! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:40, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
It's an interesting question. I wonder what UNESCO would answer! Spiritus humanus, fortasse. As for me, I was wondering about the children: they are excluded by "hommes et ... femmes" (but maybe that's the point, you work on the children in order to instill peace in the adults). Sed hic apud LilyKitty propositum nostrum fuit sententiam accuratissime vertendam ... Fortasse, Iacobo sic impetrante, melius erit "Pacem in spiritu virorum et mulierum condere". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:49, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Spiritus hic ut videtur est verbum falsum. Secundum Cassell's, Anglicum spirit sensu 'intention, real meaning (opp. to letter)' = consilium, sententia, voluntas. Et sensu 'character, disposition' = animus, ingenium, indoles, natura. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:10, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
It is a delicate question. But I think the motto "in minds of men of women" (according to English site) do not indicate sexism nor gender equality, but rather to promote en:women's rights though I could not find the clear ground. But if exists, I hope it to be written in the Latin Article or Talk of Unesco, instead of here. --LilyKitty (disputatio) 15:19, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Sed quid de mortalibus qui nec mares nec feminae sint, quibus sunt genitalia ambigua? Sunt tales mortales res nugatoriae, atque adeo nugae ignorandae? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 17:12, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Another user's talk page is not, I think, the appropriate place for these questions. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:49, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Which it isn't, this being the UNESCO talk page. ;) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 19:57, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Yes, sorry, you're right. I hadn't realised that Utilo had moved the discussion -- a good idea.
I'm not sure of the point of your questions, though. The words we're talking about were drafted sixty years ago: like it or not, people were much less aware of such issues then. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:04, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Licet mentio mulierum alicuius ponderis sit, ut LillyKitty ponit - quod pro certo non habeo - tamen deliberandum mihi videtur, num interpretatio ad litteram sit accuratissima. Quid de "pacem animis virorum mulierumque inserere"?--Utilo (disputatio) 16:36, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Bene! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:30, 11 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
Hic est etiam sententiae varietas liberos aperte includens: " ... building peace in the minds of men, women and children." Enumeratio, cum variare possit, parvi momenti esse videtur. Inde versiones breviorem brevissimamque antepono: "pacem (hominum) animis inserere".--Utilo (disputatio) 17:40, 12 Decembris 2012 (UTC)
In commentatione rem alio modo solvere conatus sum (vide ibi).--Utilo (disputatio) 18:27, 12 Decembris 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to add to this after so many years, but what I read now there just doesn't work: Pacem in animis hominum mulierumque condere. This isn't a translation ad litteram, but simply a wrong one, because homme can mean vir as much as homo (at least 70 years ago; today it means even more vir than homo). I mean, we are saying here that in French they say that women aren't people! I think that Pacem in animis condere would be sufficient; des hommes et des femmes is just there to sound nice and be inclusive. It is obvious that this is about people's minds, not horses' or chimps'. Sigur (disputatio) 12:09, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)

I've checked the other languages, and they all say "men and women", with the exception of Chinese which says "people" (人). In Russian they could have opted for "люди" but they haven't (although I can't say how idiomatic that would have been). English and Spanish obviously have the same problem as French. No idea about Arabic. Overall, I stick to my point; if they can do it in Chinese, we can do it in Latin. Sigur (disputatio) 14:42, 25 Aprilis 2019 (UTC)