Disputatio:Sveinbjörnus Egil filius

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A declension problem[fontem recensere]

The following is written in Scripta historica Islandorum: de rebus gestis:

Pars prior.
Opera et studio.
Sveinbjörnis Egilssonii
Collegae scholae Bessastadensis
in Islandia.

I would like to know how Sveinbjörn's name is in the nominative (to use for the page), as well as the place Bessastaðir (Bessastadensis). In Icelandic the name Bessastaðir is in plural (places of Bessi; Bessi's places- I it sounds weird in Icelandic too, so..), ergo it might also be in plural in latin? Please help. --BiT 16:32, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about the placename. Plenty of Latin towns are plural: Athenae, Thebae, and Tres Tabernae come immediately to mind. IacobusAmor 16:57, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but what about Sveinbjörn Egilsson's name? What should I write in the article? --BiT 16:59, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
Wow, that's tough. This Egilssonius business has got to go, unless that's attested. And for now, Sveinbjörnis has to go too... I'm not quite sure how to render that Latine, but we can't just go third declensioning everything that ends with an n. How is this pronounced (my icelandic is 0)? s+VAIN+byoern? Is this like German ö? If so, this is generally rendered oe in Latin, cf Moebii taenia. Like before, this j will have to be an i. But I wonder if there is a similar name in another language, that already has an attestation...--Ioshus (disp) 17:46, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
But isn't the text given above an attestation? My assumption would be nominative Sveinbjörn Egilssonius -- by our normal rules the article should actually be at Sveinbiorn, but whether or not we enforce it here, I would argue that it's OK to start the article with "Sveinbjörn Egilssonius, blablabla." As for Besstadensis, again we have an adjective. --Iustinus 17:56, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
I'm retarded, man... I guess I actually have to read the thread before responding.......--Ioshus (disp) 17:58, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
Yes you are :] But isn't there any way to figure out the noun form from the adjective? --BiT 18:41, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
Not reliably. We can maybe guess. A lot of place names containing that Germanic -stad- root were latinized as -stadium (thinking of the Greco-Latin word, of course), but unfortunately if that were the case here, we would expect Bessastadiensis with an i. --Iustinus 19:12, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)
He appears not to have been a consistent Latinizer: the accusative form in the footnote "Sveinbjörnum Egilsson" would want a nominative "Sveinbiörnus Egilsson". But no reason to prefer this over the form you have actually chosen for the title. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:12, 2 Februarii 2007 (UTC)

Nomina patria Islandica[fontem recensere]

Pantocrator has moved Sveinbiorn Egilssonius ad Sveinbjörnus Egil filius, and I agree with him. Of course, we will not translate most surnames of patronymical origin: an Englishman called Johnson will not be called Ioannis filius in Latin, because it would be unsystematic: one Englishman who has such patronymical surname corresponds to dozens of other Englismen who don't. In Iceland, however, by law nearly everybody has a patronymic, while actual surnames are very rare. And since we already translate Russian patronymics (Demetrius Anatolii filius Medvedev, Vladimirus Vladimiri filius Putin, Boris Nicolai filius Jel'cin), why not translate Sveinbjörnus Egil filius, Leivus Erici filius, Thorvaldus Erici filius (which we already have) and also Olaus Ragnar Grímur filius, Iohanna Sigridis filia, Þorsteinn Pauli filius etc.? --Gabriel Svoboda 05:10, 31 Martii 2010 (UTC)

The man himself was not consistent over the Latin form of his name. Yes, it's true that a pattern like this could be applied to nearly all Icelanders and so we have a reason to prefer it. I'm in favour. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:29, 31 Martii 2010 (UTC)
We would not translate a name like 'Johnson' anyway, because he is not likely the son of John. If it were to be Latinised at all, it would be with 'de': Bob Johnson = Robertus de Ioanne; that is how I think I would treat my own surname in Latin were it a patronymic.
Because he did use 'Egilssonius' in Latin, we can't omit that form entirely, yet of course most Icelanders haven't; have we dealt with the question of people from other European countries that didn't have a surname? I should like to use a surname any time one is available, but here it is not. Pantocrator 05:07, 1 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)
In modern times Iceland is unique among European countries in this. In earlier times the problem hardly arises because notable people were usually recorded in Latin documents, so the choice of name is often settled for us by the documents. This man, too, appears in Latin documents, but inconsistently. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:53, 1 Aprilis 2010 (UTC)