Disputatio:Organum (corpus)
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Titulus dubius[fontem recensere]
Huius paginae titulus dubius est. Ego verbum "viscus" nunquam in numero singulari audivi nec lexi. Aequaliter in vocabulario "Duden" "viscera" ut pluraletantum tantum inveni. Ego autem nec philologus sum nec bibliothecam philologicam ampliam possideo. Adiutorium necesse et petitum est. Bis-Taurinus (disputatio) 22:37, 8 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
- L&S. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:44, 8 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
- Viscus singulare certe in soluta oratione est rarum; invenio autem exempla apud Celsum, Plinium, nonnullosque alios. Mea sententia, paginam ad viscera formam usitatiorem movere oportet, sed forma singularis, si umquam vero necesse sit, non omnino prohibenda est. Lesgles (disputatio) 00:03, 9 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
- Gratias Bis-Taurinum et Iacobum et Lesgles emendationes et consilios vestra.--Jondel (disputatio) 00:44, 12 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
- Writing about the external viscera of plants gives one an odd feeling. Perhaps better: [[organum (anatomia)]]? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:11, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- In support of Iacobus's comment, in the glossary of Stearn's Botanical Latin the only Latin word suggested for "organ" is "organum". Two phrases are added, "organa affixionis" organs of attachment and "organa reproductionis" organs of reproduction. Based on this, it appears to me, we should not use "viscera" for the organs of plants. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:27, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- But we have to, since the definition says viscera "sunt quoddam distinctum munus habentia membra corporis (animalis aut plantis)." (Why it's not plantae here is a question best left to the grammarians.) :/ IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:44, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- It would also be strange to include the ear among the viscera. Cf. the definition in en:organ (anatomy): "In biology, an organ or viscus is a collection of tissues joined in a structural unit to serve a common function. In anatomy, a viscus /ˈvɪskəs/ is an internal organ, and viscera is the plural form." Organum for a biological organ is apparently not classical Latin, but it is classical Greek (Aristotle used it to talk about both animals and plants), and it seems to be the general term we desire. Lesgles (disputatio) 19:37, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- Yay! We're approaching a consensus. At least among three of us, out of the millions concerned. :/ IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:29, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- It's heartening, isn't it?
- Since this is an article about biology, we should expect to handle recent Latin scientific terminology. The classical users of "viscera" hadn't ever thought of the general sense of "organum" -- foreseen by Aristotle of course -- and long afterwards adopted by zoologists and botanists. They were more interested in sacrifices and stomach-ache.
- In addition to its other defects (from the encyclopedia point of view) "viscera" does not combine well with the necessary qualifying adjectives ... If you look for "organa reproductionis" via Google, you find it used in Latin sources about animals as well as plants. Nobody ever wrote "viscera reproductionis".
- So, if this article is to cover animals and plants, I'd call it "organum" and then say in the introduction that "viscera/viscus" is the classical and traditional term, still used in anatomy, for internal organs of animals. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:53, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Constat viscera ad interiores tantum partes corporis referri. Itaque titulo Anglico q.e. "organ (anatomy)" nec viscus nec viscera respondent, sed membrum, cuius quidem commentatio praesens totum intellectum huius verbi nondum satis feliciter explicat (cf. Cic. Fin. 3.18). Neander (disputatio) 15:02, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Ut autem tu in Disputatio:Membrum scripsisti, Cicero tantum de aspectabilibus corporis partibus loquitur: haec sunt manus, crura, pedes, cauda, plumae, mammae, barba. Lesgles (disputatio) 15:55, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Fortasse aliis rebus intentus membrum nimis arte, parte sententiae Ciceronis omissa, definivi. Videamus locum Ciceronis (Fin. 3.18), ubi membro uti videtur termino generali: "Iam membrorum, id est, partium corporis alia videntur propter eorum usum a natura esse donata, ut manus, crura, pedes, ut ea, quae sunt intus in corpore, quorum utilitas quanta sit a medicis etiam disputatur; alia autem nullam ob utilitatem quasi ad quendam ornatum, ut cauda pavoni, plumae versicolores columbis, viris mammae atque barba." Si rem bene perspexi, et membra aspectabilia ("ut manus, crura, pedes") et viscera ("ea, quae sunt intus in corpore") in membra naturalia ("propter eorum usum a natura ... donata") includit. Neander (disputatio) 17:14, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Ut autem tu in Disputatio:Membrum scripsisti, Cicero tantum de aspectabilibus corporis partibus loquitur: haec sunt manus, crura, pedes, cauda, plumae, mammae, barba. Lesgles (disputatio) 15:55, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Constat viscera ad interiores tantum partes corporis referri. Itaque titulo Anglico q.e. "organ (anatomy)" nec viscus nec viscera respondent, sed membrum, cuius quidem commentatio praesens totum intellectum huius verbi nondum satis feliciter explicat (cf. Cic. Fin. 3.18). Neander (disputatio) 15:02, 1 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Yay! We're approaching a consensus. At least among three of us, out of the millions concerned. :/ IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:29, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- It would also be strange to include the ear among the viscera. Cf. the definition in en:organ (anatomy): "In biology, an organ or viscus is a collection of tissues joined in a structural unit to serve a common function. In anatomy, a viscus /ˈvɪskəs/ is an internal organ, and viscera is the plural form." Organum for a biological organ is apparently not classical Latin, but it is classical Greek (Aristotle used it to talk about both animals and plants), and it seems to be the general term we desire. Lesgles (disputatio) 19:37, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- But we have to, since the definition says viscera "sunt quoddam distinctum munus habentia membra corporis (animalis aut plantis)." (Why it's not plantae here is a question best left to the grammarians.) :/ IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:44, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- In support of Iacobus's comment, in the glossary of Stearn's Botanical Latin the only Latin word suggested for "organ" is "organum". Two phrases are added, "organa affixionis" organs of attachment and "organa reproductionis" organs of reproduction. Based on this, it appears to me, we should not use "viscera" for the organs of plants. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:27, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- Writing about the external viscera of plants gives one an odd feeling. Perhaps better: [[organum (anatomia)]]? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:11, 31 Augusti 2015 (UTC)
- Gratias Bis-Taurinum et Iacobum et Lesgles emendationes et consilios vestra.--Jondel (disputatio) 00:44, 12 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
- Viscus singulare certe in soluta oratione est rarum; invenio autem exempla apud Celsum, Plinium, nonnullosque alios. Mea sententia, paginam ad viscera formam usitatiorem movere oportet, sed forma singularis, si umquam vero necesse sit, non omnino prohibenda est. Lesgles (disputatio) 00:03, 9 Iunii 2015 (UTC)
Recte dicis, ego non satis diligenter legi; hanc significationem latiorem accipere debemus, et membrum organo praeponere, quamquam membrum alibi vere "partes externas"/"limbs" significare videtur: membra defessa, hispida membra, membra exercere.
De organo obiter OED res utiles praebet:
...their etymon classical Latin organum (plural organa) mechanical device, instrument, engine of war, musical instrument, hydraulic organ, organ pipe, in post-classical Latin also bodily organ (early 3rd cent.), organ of speech (late 4th cent.), church organ (5th cent.), singing, polyphony (9th cent.; from 12th cent. in British sources), person who acts as an intermediary (mid 14th cent.), instrumentality, agency (c1397, 1448 in British sources) < ancient Greek ὄργανον (plural ὄργανα ) tool, instrument, engine of war, musical instrument, surgical instrument, also bodily organ especially as instrument of sense or faculty, originally ‘that with which one works’
Lesgles (disputatio) 19:46, 11 Septembris 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks to Usor:Shmurak, we have been brought back to this subject. Surely a move from "viscera" was necessary. So do we prefer "organum" (with Greek and scientific Latin) or "membrum" (with classical Latin)? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:58, 31 Decembris 2018 (UTC)