Disputatio:Ordo pro Merito Melitensi

Illi et illae[fontem recensere]

Salve. What is illi et illae^? ? This and that? Here and there? The former and the latter? Gratias Jondel (disputatio) 08:45, 9 Septembris 2014 (UTC) Reddidi ad 'viris mulieribusque'Jondel (disputatio) 09:04, 9 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The name in English[fontem recensere]

Since the English wiki gives this topic as the Order pro merito Melitensi and leaves the Latin untranslated, English-speakers who wonder what the Latin might mean will be happy to know that it can be glossed, literally, 'Order for Maltese merit'. It's unconcerned with merit in general, but highlights only on the kind pertaining to Malta. This might surprise those brought up on phrases having the structure seen in 'French Legion of Honor', as the structure offered by this award is equivalent to what would be seen in 'Legion of French Honor'. Some will have expected 'Maltese Order of Merit', but that's not what the syntax offers. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:10, 11 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If it were intended to be 'Maltese Order of Merit', it would be Ordo pro merito Melitensis (with an ess at the end). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:00, 11 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. The phrase "pro Merito Melitensi" is however confirmed on the website (see nexus externi). I suppose one might be allowed to interpret it "Order for Merit as pertaining to the Maltese Order". Which is also discomfiting because Order is then being used in two senses in the same expression ... I think ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:19, 11 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This would presumably be why the English page doesn't attempt to gloss the Latin! Fortunately, we don't have to either. A. Mahoney (disputatio) 14:25, 11 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Papaya! I mean, 'Papae!' Great! :) Jondel (disputatio) 00:59, 12 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Miscellanea[fontem recensere]

Copied from my discussion page, as being of more particular interest here:

Perhaps you could be so kind as to give a brief overview of Ordo pro Merito Melitensi? which I introduced being one current institution which has no recognisable name in the vernacular, & of course hoping that the subject itself is of interest to some! Thanks again & till soon M

Time is lacking, but if you really want to improve the text, start by learning something about declensions & conjugations. This is your text as it stands:

Ordo pro Merito Melitensi est ordo meritum Suprema Ordinis Melitensis (breviter S.M.O.M.) anno MCMXX condidit. Pro viris feminae non solum membrorum Æcclesiae Romanae qui sibi afferentit ut auxilioque operam det honore et decus Ordinem Melitensis retributur. Honores per decretum Summo Consilii sunt concessit motu proprio pro Magno Magistro ordinis.

This is more or less what it's saying, with each problematic word rendered in a similarly problematic way:

The Order for Maltese Merit is an order, a merit. The Funeral Rites of the Maltese Order (briefly S.M.O.M.) in the year MCMXX it founded. For men and a woman's not only of the limbs of the Roman Tchurtch whooch conveigheth to himself so that it might apply himself and to assistance by honor and a dignity to the Order of a Maltese is repayied. The Top of the Council has honors by decree. It granted by a motu proprio on behalf of the Grand Master of the order.

The wrong (or extremely problematic in context) words are:

meritum, Suprema, S.M.O.M., condidit, feminae, membrorum, Æcclesiae, qui, sibi, afferentit, auxilioque, honore, Ordinem, Melitensis, retributur, Summo, Consilii, sunt, concessit.

That's 19 words out of 49, giving a score of 61, which on the scale I devised long ago is a –6. Even this isn't as dire as –7, which indicates that a text isn't written in Latin, though it would be hard to argue on the basis of what the text is actually saying (see the translation above) that it belongs in a published encyclopedia. Two or three times the text has (perhaps generously) been marked –5, and several times you've removed that indication, in effect asserting that the Latin is satisfactory. Let's fix that right now (inserting –6). Meanwhile, see if you can figure out what's wrong with the words listed above. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 02:48, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As for which edits are "good ones to follow": almost all of them. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 02:55, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quotation below altered (boiled down to the plain text) to focus on the problem: IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:18, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is this any better? M

"Ordo pro Merito Melitensi conditus anno MCMXX a Ordine Supremus Militaris Melitensis (breviter S.M.O.M.). Ordinem meritorum pro viris feminisque non solum fides Ecclesiae Romanae pro honore et decus ad Ordinem Melitensis retributur. Honores concessit per decretum Supremus Consilii motu proprio pro Magno Magistro ordinis."

Yes: 14 errors out of 44 words (or 15 out of 44 if you count the verb missing from the first sentence) on the proposed scale would be a –5. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:18, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in the caption "Crucem pro Merito Melitensi" (not shown above), the first word is in the wrong case. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:18, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nine days ago, Usor:RHaworth asked "How long before you learn to sign?" IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:18, 18 Septembris 2014 (UTC)[reply]