Disputatio:Motus Neoburbonius

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Translation[fontem recensere]

Please, can someone help me to translate the page correctly into Latin? --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 17:30, 24 Februarii 2021 (UTC) These are translations in Italian and English.Reply[reply]

(IT) Il Movimento Neoborbonico è un movimento culturale nato nel 1993 a Napoli con diverse “delegazioni” in Italia e all’estero. Da una serie di articoli dello scrittore e autore di testi di canzoni, televisivi e cinematografici Riccardo Pazzaglia nacque, con Gennaro De Crescenzo, docente, saggista, giornalista e archivista, l'idea di contro-celebrare l'arrivo di Garibaldi a Napoli (7 settembre del 1860). Centinaia di persone si riunirono in quella serata al Borgo Marinaro "assediate" dai media (dai quotidiani nazionali alla BBC) e da lì la nascita di una associazione culturale senza scopo di lucro che aveva ed ha come finalità principale la ricerca e la divulgazione della memoria storica in particolare del Regno delle Due Sicilie e dei Borbone di Napoli. Migliaia le pagine di rassegna stampa italiana ed estera e migliaia le adesioni e i contatti (oltre 8 mlioni di visualizzazioni in pochi anni sul sito neoborbonici.it ) grazie ad un lavoro continuo dei militanti di un Movimento che ha fatto anche nascere un aggettivo ("neoborbonico") prima sconosciuto e ora associato a persone appassionate di storia ed orgogliose del proprio passato. Una vera e propria categoria storiografica utilizzata da chi contesta le tesi "neoborboniche" in merito soprattutto ai primati in gran parte economici del Sud preunitario e da chi, invece, in esse si riconosce. Numerosi gli studi che riprendono la storia del Movimento (ultimi quelli del convegno sul fenomeno del “Neoborbonism” presso la Columbia University of New York nel settembre 2014 con successive e diverse tesi di laurea).


Vittorio Messori, Le cose della vita, Edizioni Paoline, Milano, 1995 Pino Aprile, Terroni, Piemme, Milano, 2010

Valeria Mendicino, Il neoborbonismo: da revisionismo storico a fenomeno mediatico, Tesi di laurea specialistica, Facoltà di Lettere e Filosofia, Università della Calabria, Anno Accademico 2008-2009

Marta Petrusewicz, Neoborbonismo: che succede? Relazione al seminario di studi moderni italiani, Columbia University, New York, 19 settembre 2014

Gigi Di Fiore, La Nazione Napoletana, Utet, Torino, 2015 ("I neoborbonici e i loro figli").




(EN) The Neo-Bourbon Movement is a cultural movement born in 1993 in Naples with several "delegations" in Italy and abroad. From a series of articles by the writerand author of song, television and film texts Riccardo Pazzaglia, with Gennaro De Crescenzo, teacher, essayist, journalist and archivist, was born the idea of ​​counter-celebrating Garibaldi's arrival in Naples (7 September 1860). Hundreds of people gathered in the Borgo Marinaro that evening "besieged" by the media (from national newspapers to the BBC) and from there the birth of a non-profit cultural association that had and has as its main purpose the research and dissemination of memory historical in particular of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and the Bourbons of Naples. Thousands of pages of Italian and foreign press reviews and thousands of memberships and contacts (over 8 million views in a few years on the neoborbonici.it site) trough the continuous work of the militants of a Movement that has also given rise to an adjective ("neoborbonico") previously unknown and now associated with people passionate about history and proud of their past. A real historiographic category used by those who dispute the "neo-Bourbon" theses concerning above all the largely economic primates of the pre-unification South and by those who recognize themselves in them. Numerous studies that take up the history of the Movement (the latest ones from the conference on the phenomenon of "Neoborbonism" at Columbia University of New York in September 2014 with successive and different degree theses).


Vittorio Messori, The things of life, Pauline Editions, Milan, 1995 Pino Aprile, Terroni, Piemme, Milan, 2010

Valeria Mendicino, Neo-Bourbonism: from historical revisionism to media phenomenon, Master's thesis, Faculty of Literature and Philosophy, University of Calabria, Academic year 2008-2009

Marta Petrusewicz, Neo-Bourbonism: what happens? Report at the seminar of modern Italian studies, Columbia University, New York, 19 September 2014

Gigi Di Fiore, The Neapolitan Nation, Utet, Turin, 2015 ("The neo-Bourbons and their children").




E disputatione mea mota[fontem recensere]

... I took the liberty of eliminating grammar error warnings to avoid "rushing you". Anyway, sorry if I answer only now, I had removed the link to "Neoborbonismo" because it is not about the movement, but the ideology on which it is based (such as "Conservative Party" and "Conservatism"). I want to specify that the Latin name "Neo-Borbonis" derives from the prefix "neo" (new) and from the surname with which the Bourbon kings signed themselves in Latin: "Borbonis" (in English: of Bourbon, in Italian "di Borbone", therefore, in genitive). Thanks again for your help. Good evening. --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 17:43, 24 Februarii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I understand the difference between an ideology and a political movement, but by removing the link, you create a problem for Vicipaedians. This is Italian politics. If there is no equivalent article in Italian, we may conclude that the topic is not thought to be notable among Italian speakers.
As for the article title, notice that the Italian name is Neo-Borbonico, not Neo-Borbone. A good Latin name will probably have the same grammar as that Italian name: it will not use the surname itself, but an adjective. The adjective we have used in other articles is "Burbonius". There are sources for that spelling. A different choice might be made, certainly, but the choice should be based on Latin sources that use this name in an adjectival form. (This is assuming that the movement does not have an official Latin name: if it does, we would normally use it.) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:11, 24 Februarii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ok, thank you for the clarification on the name. The adjective "neoborbonico" in Italian is comparable with "di Borbone" so I thought that "Borbonis" was fine, however, if "Borbonius" is used it is certainly more correct. However, if you think it is right to link "Motus Neo-Borbonius" to "Neoborbonico", that's fine for me. --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 20:44, 24 Februarii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bibliography[fontem recensere]

I verified the bibliography and external links, added some books, removed a couple that did not seem very useful: Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:11, 24 Februarii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Vittorio Messori, Le cose della vita, Edizioni Paoline, Mediolanum, 1995 [maybe some specific article from this is relevant?]
  • Valeria Mendicino, Il neoborbonismo: da revisionismo storico a fenomeno mediatico, Thesis Laurae, Letterae et Philosophia, Universitas Bruttii, Annus Academicus 2008-2009 [I don't think this is available on the web. If it is, we should add the link and it could go in "external links". If not, it's no use to readers]
  • Marta Petrusewicz, Neoborbonismo: che succede? Relazione al seminario di studi moderni italiani, Universitas Columbiae, Novum Eboracum, 2014. [I don't think this is available on the web. If it is, we should add the link and it could go in "external links". If not, it's no use to readers]

In progress[fontem recensere]

I'm rewriting now, so I ask others to hold off editing for an hour or two. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:40, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have a couple of questions to which I have seen no clear answers yet:
  • The original second paragraph said that a society was constituted in 1993: presumably this was the "Associazione Culturale Neoborbonica", and from then on it had a president and a secretary and what not. Is that correct?
  • There was a claim of Italian and foreign "delegations" in the original first paragraph, but I haven't seen any evidence or details of what this means. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:50, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Associations, fraternities, societies, and other formal organizations that have single (national or international) headquarters may have chapters in multiple locations. Maybe that's what "delegations" was trying to say. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 18:41, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Does any source say how many members the "Associazione" or "Movimento" has?
It's just possible that some of this information is visible if one registers with the Neo-Borbonici website, but I'm not about to do that. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:50, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Still at work. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:59, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, I've finished now. I've said something rather different from what was there before, but it's verifiable in good sources. Of course, anyone can add more, if it's notable and has appropriate sources. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:00, 6 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you so much. The "Movimento Neoborbonico" is officially called "Associazione culturale Neoborbonicaa", but is simply indicated with the term by which it is best known: "Movimento" to shorten the name which is too long. By the term "delegations" I meant some secondary offices: which can either be located in a physical structure or be represented by a person (for more information: http://www.neoborbonici.it/portal/index.php?option=com_content&task= view & id = 69 & Itemid = 95). Currently, although I am a member of the Movement, I do not know a way to know the exact number of members, I can ask the President Gennaro De Crescenzo. --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 17:25, 8 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for the link, but unless I register I'm not allowed to see that page. Never mind.
Certainly you could ask him, but we can't publish the number from a verbal statement (even the president's)! We would need a published source. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:56, 8 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This detail might amuse you: one reason why I said that your original text was not really Latin was the phrase "contra celebrare". I was simply unable to understand how these words fitted into their sentence. When I saw "counter-celebrate" in your English text, above, I was able to understand it, though I have never seen that English compound before. I still suspect that readers would not easily understand "... contra celebrare ..." in a Latin sentence. That's why I re-thought the idea and wrote "anniversarium ... nefastum ... commemoratum est" in my Latin version. (Re-thinking becomes easier as you read more Latin. No doubt I have a long way to go yet!) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:22, 8 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, for 'to countersign', Traupman does give contrascribere, so if the pattern can be taken to be productive, contracelebrare would fit, though the shade of Cicero might have a fit. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:01, 8 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Evidently you know the way my brain works, Iacobe. Yes, Cicero was on my mind. Anyway, "contrascribere" is a handy word to know. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:19, 9 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you very much for the explanation of "contra celebrare", as you have noticed my Latin is, unfortunately, influenced by some Italian and sometimes Neapolitan phrases, so it can be very difficult to understand me, for those who read Latin but are not Italians. Excuse me again, I will try to improve (it is also likely that when I write in English I make mistakes due to this "influence"). However regarding the number of members of the Movement, I know that written sources are needed, so I could ask the President if he can publish it. --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 16:25, 9 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your English is very good, if I may say so. And "counter-celebrate" does exist in English, though I had never seen it before. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:43, 10 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What do you think about adding the template Capsa factionis on this page? --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 14:59, 12 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

In my opinion there is the question whether this is a political party, or a movement, or a cultural association. A political party typically proposes or endorses candidates for election. Does the Movimento Neoborbonico do that? It's not currently mentioned on the page. Others may have an opinion on this? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:20, 12 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Movimento Neoborbonico is not a political party and is not even running for elections, but it has a very similar structure to a party. Since there is no more appropriate template I thought to insert that. --AEOS1130 (disputatio) 17:50, 12 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thinking about it maybe it is better Capsa societatis -AEOS1130 (disputatio) 11:06, 13 Martii 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]