Disputatio:Lingua Neapolitana

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To user Come to the talk page here and let's discuss this as gentlemen. Nnapulitano is most certainly a language in its own right, and therefore, with certainty, fortasse disbelongs in this article. Furthermore, do you really mean to say that dialects of Nnapulitano are not spoken in Pugliese, Molisan, and Abruzzese? Most would argue that versions of this language are spoken in even more places, not fewer.--Ioshus Rocchio 03:50, 27 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as I said, I am not a native speaker, but I am a fairly proficient conversationalist in Italian, and I can certainly understand almost anything written or what anyone is saying in Nnapulitano as it is spoken in Avellino and around, and almost any version of Sicilianu. Having traveled back home a bunch, I don't know how anyone could miss hearing Nnapulitano outside of Campania.

Certainly there are debates about how broadly Neapolitan should be applied to the all meridional-internal dialects of Italian, certainly en suggests that Neapolitan is falsely applied to the dialects of Calabria, Lucano, etc. ISOcertainly thinks Napulitano to be a language in its own right, so even if we can't agree on where its spoken we should be able to agree that fortasse does not belong at all in this article.

I iterate that ethnologue is not the only source for linguistics and language history in this world, though commendable. If you look, it says

Region:Campania and Calabria provinces, southern Italy. Alternate names:Neapolitan-Calabrese, Napoletano (Neapolitan, Tirrenic), Northern Calabrese-Lucano (Lucanian, Basilicatan). Limited inherent intelligibility of Standard Italian. Neapolitan and Calabrese are reported to be very different from each other. Southern Calabrian is reported to be a dialect of Sicilian.

This web edition of the Ethnologue contains all the content of the print edition and may be cited as: Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/.

It seems scant, inexhaustive, ambiguous, and contradictive. There are many other sources for information on the use of Nnapulitano in Italia and in its many diasporis. For instance, I quote from nap:lengua napulitana itself,

O napulitano, è uno de dialetti ca se parlano n Campania. Soletamente, però, so' cchiammate accussì tutt' 'e dialette ca se parlano ô Sudd cuntinentale (Campania, Lucania, nord Calavria, nord Puglia e Molise) e parlate ca se ntenneno ll'une cu ll'ate e teneno cierte rregule símmele, e n chistu senzo, pe ll'Organizzazione Nternazziunale 'e Standardizzazione (ISO) 'o nnapulitano nun è sulo nu dialetto, ma è cunsiderato na vera e ppropria "lengua" (ISO 639: nap).

And, now that I look at the history of the Napulitan page, and compare ISPS, it seems you have been there as well, cutting out Puglia and Molise.

I'm certainly not in the position to deliver my thesis on the spread of Nnapulitano, my expertise is in more antique languages, but I must earnestly disagree with your view.--Ioshus Rocchio 06:01, 28 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

One more thing...I'm not arguing that all the dialects of the surrounding regions be called Nnapulitano...I am suggesting that forms of Nnapulitano are spoken in surrounding regions. I noticed reversions of your work on en:Neapolitan language, too...--Ioshus Rocchio 06:16, 28 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

Vorrei evitare una sgradevolissima disputa e un interminabile tira e molla su questo articolo che non finirebbe facilmente, mi creda. Includere i nomi delle regioni che ho cancellato (e continuerò a cancellare) costituisce un'offesa all'identità dialettologica di milioni di italiani che vivono in Abruzzo, Molise e Puglia.

È arbitraria e annessionistica la loro inclusione nella "lingua" napoletana: questi italiani infatti parlano dialetti certamente imparentati con il napoletano ("dialetti italiani meridionali intermedi"), ma sui quali il napoletano non ha alcuna preminenza.

Non esiste infatti uno standard "napoletano" valido nell'area che qui è stata delimitata; e neppure si può dire che il napoletano della città di Napoli sia parlato in tutta la Campania, in Basilicata e nella Calabria settentrionale (la zona attribuita da Ethnologue alla "lingua" napoletana): anche questo è decisamente discutibile. Sarei disposto tuttavia ad accettare questa delimitazione, vantata come "ufficiale"; anche se in concreto il napoletano non ha sinora ottenuto in Italia (con buona pace dei suoi estimatori) lo status di "lingua minoritaria", al pari di friulano, occitano, sardo e altre parlate.

Appare ragionevole rendere conto di questo nell'articolo, piuttosto che sentenziare che il napoletano è indiscutibilmente una lingua, per giunta attribuendole un'estensione che è semplicemente esagerata.

As for the Neapolitan Wikipedia, its administrators seem to be slightly biased when it comes to defending their "language". Apparently, the NPOV rule doesn't seem to apply there. -- 06:33, 28 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue and ISO both consider the "language" to be valid. You won't trust native speakers, or the sources you suggested I go for more research. Speaking of NPOV, you seem to hold some sort of disdain for Nnapulitano, judging by your insistance that it is not a true language, and your condescending use of quotation marks everytime you type latin. Correcting the fruits of your contempt is becoming a tedious exercise.--Ioshus Rocchio 20:04, 28 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

Image from the German WP[fontem recensere]

I have added an image of the German WP. I just added it, I do not know whether it is correct. Maybe it is a help for your conversation. In the German WP we can read:

de:Neapolitanisch: Neapolitanisch [...] ist ein romanischer Dialekt, wie er in der Stadt Neapel gesprochen wird [...]. Das Neapolitanische ist die Mutter der kampanischen Dialekte, der sich von Stadt zu Stadt unterscheidet. Es bestehen viele Ähnlichkeiten zu den Dialekten der umgebenden Regionen Süditaliens wie Kalabrien, Basilicata, Apulien, Molise, Lazio und den Abbruzzo. Mitte der 70er Jahre gab es ca. 7 Millionen muttersprachliche Sprecher.

In English maybe:

Neapolitan is a Romance dialect [it is not said "language"], which is spoken [among others] in Naples. The Neapolitan is the mother of the Campanian dialects, which differs from city to city. There are many similarities to the dialects of the surrounding regions of South Italy like Kalabrien, Basilicata, Apulien, Molise, Lazio and Abbruzzo. In the 70 years it had about 7 million native speakers.

--Roland2 08:47, 28 Februarii 2006 (UTC)

de lingua usa[fontem recensere]

Cur haec omnia non Latine disputatis, quippe cum in vicipedia Latina simus?! usor:Bohmhammel 20.53 (UTC) pridie Kal. Mart. 2006

De mutuali linguarum intellectu[fontem recensere]

Sententiam admodum obscuram "Italiani sine illam discere intellegere bene non solent" removi. Neapolitani sicut Florentini sunt Italiani. Italiani Italiane loquentes, qui Neapoli habitant, etiam Neapolitane intelleguntur et loquuntur. Bene scio quid dicere voluit auctor, sed non dixit! Quomodo dicere? Incertus sum: ergo sententiam non iam rescripsi. An "Italiana lingua loquentes, Neapolitanae expertes, non sine studio [hanc linguam] intellegunt"? At si id dicimus, parvam rem addere necesse est: tironi quantas dies studere oportebit? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:34, 18 Novembris 2019 (UTC)