Disputatio:Lingua Cambrica

E Vicipaedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

"Lingua Vallensis"[fontem recensere]

I've seen Lingua Vallensis in Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis, in the Latin part of the page that starts, "Titles available in the Harry Potter series (in reading order)" at the front of the book. Would that be a good enough source? (I'm not saying we should change "Lingua Cambrica" -- I'm just wondering whether "Vallensis" deserves a mention.) Mattie 23:58, 17 Iulii 2011 (UTC)

I think it's not quite good enough, because (if I understand you right) it's written by someone on the publisher's staff, and we don't know whether the Harry Potter translator (who is a good Latinist) approved it. It's a good indication that we should look for a better source! Well, I don't find a precise source for "Lingua Vallensis" on Google, except one that is probably referring to Wallon (of Belgium), not Welsh. But if anyone does find a better source, by all means add it to the page. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 18 Iulii 2011 (UTC)
I've definitely seen Vallensis elsewhere, e.g. in the book Pinoculus, but consider Cambrica superior for a number of reasons, not least being that it is 1st/2nd declension, and thus more suited to a language name. --Iustinus 20:51, 18 Iulii 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed Vallensis being used in the actual text of Harrius Potter, on p. 186: "'Sed num in Britannia sunt dracones feri?' inquit Harrius. ¶ 'Scilicet sunt,' inquit Ronaldus. 'Vulgares Virides Vallenses et Dracones Nigri Epudarum Insularum...'" Mattie 05:46, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
Then this could be cited on the page Cambria: we certainly have to cater for readers of Harrius Potter. In your citation it isn't being used as a name for the language, rather, I guess, as an equivalent of en:Wyvern, so it should be cited at Vivernus as well! Indeed, it may turn out to be our proper choice as pagename there (we have no source for "Vivernus", I see) but I suspect there must be something earlier and more specific if we could only find it.
I don't as it happens agree with Iustinus about the declension -- we have other language names in -ensis, and every reader of Latin needs to know this termination because it is so typical of geographical names anyway -- but I see no reason not to retain a form based on Cambria as our pagename for the language. My main reason is that though Wales/Welsh seems to be a single placename in English, related forms in Latin tend to be ambiguous: there are other places across Europe with identical or similar names and with the same etymology, most notably Wallonia and Wallachia. These names were pejorative in origin, though that undertone is no longer prominent. But Cambria, so far as I know, is unambiguous and neutral in Latin. Hence, also, it is the basis of the geological term. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:05, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
At this site, the name Wallie is plainly visible in the royal seal used by Owain Glyn Dwr (Owain Glyndŵr, d. ca. 1416), and attestations of Wallia from the past six hundred years abound, as searching via Google for "princeps walliae" shows. IacobusAmor 10:59, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
That, too, could be cited at Cambria -- a page which at present has no citations at all :( Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:43, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
I should have pointed out, "Vulgaris Viridis Vallensis" was Needham's translation for "Common Welsh Green" - a type of dragon Rowling (I'm assuming) made up. I might be missing something, but I don't think VVV has anything to do with the wyvern.
We shouldn't replace Lingua Cambrica, I agree — but shouldn't we mention all the different Latin names Welsh has? Vallensis wasn't referring to the language in that particular sentence, but it was elsewhere (see the top of the thread), and we only didn't use it because it was unclear whether Needham agreed with the word Vallensis; but since the word was used in the actual Harrius Potter text, it seems like a pretty good confirmation to me. Mattie 16:36, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
I think we agree on everything except one point, which seems to me very important. This is not a dictionary, it's an encyclopedia.
If this were a dictionary, it might deal with a word "Welsh", and enumerate all the Latin translations it may have, and what they mean.
Since this is an encyclopedia, it does a different job. It has entries for concepts, not (in principle, and in general) for words. So it has no entry for "Welsh" as such, though it has entries for "Wales", and for "Welsh language", and it might well have an entry for "Welsh people" though at present it doesn't. You've asked me, if I understand you, whether the text you've found should be cited on Vicipaedia -- and I've said yes. It should be. At "Wales" (currently named Cambria) because the adjective Vallensis, as the translator uses it in that text, is certainly an adjective related to the country called "Wales", which we happen to describe at Cambria.
But (forgive me if I'm wrong -- I'm no Potterist) the green dragon referred to, which for some reason you don't think is a wyvern, is a Welsh race or breed or species of dragons. It isn't a Welsh-speaking dragon. So the word you've found, in the context you've found it, has nothing to do with the "Welsh language", which is a different concept, to an encyclopedia, from Wales.
So, if you want to cite the word "Vallensis" on this page, as a possible name for the Welsh language, you have to find it being used as such. And the fact that a publisher's blurb-writer uses in that way still doesn't seem to me very good evidence. If "Vallensis" is a good word for the Welsh language, someone reliable will have used it, in print, over the last five hundred years, with that meaning. If no one reliable ever has, that would suggest to me that it isn't such a good word for the Welsh language after all. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:41, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
The reason I don't think it's a wyvern is that the original English text didn't say wyvern but Common Welsh Green (read about it here for instance).
As for the rest, Vicipaedia frequently gives a few synonyms (Media communicationis socialis gives four, many language pages give two, Genuenses has three, etc.), so, although this is of course not a dictionary, it's our custom to document every well-sourced name we find. So our disagreement, I think, is that I think that Vallensis being used in the text confirms that Needham approved of it being used earlier on as Lingua Vallensis, while you don't, which I guess closes the debate. Mattie 19:14, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
We already have two names in the text here, and a third in a footnote; but all three cited from well known long-respected authors who were writing seriously about Wales and its language. Find a source to match those, and then reopen the debate, and I'll be only too happy to agree with you.
I have to agree right now about the Common Welsh Green. The illustration gives it four legs, so it can't be a wyvern. Thank you :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:35, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
The reason I said the debate was closed was that I'm not planning to go find another source ... it's not worth the effort :D Mattie 20:04, 8 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
I have found citations for "Lingua Vallica" and added a couple. I still suspect, however, that these Vall- names are ambiguous. For example, this one is probably one of the Rhaeto-Romance languages, not Welsh. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:24, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
Here I have found this: "Quis mihi Scrupulum hujus rei eximet, an vera sit illa Valliae Vestrae Dialectus, quam Autor praefati Libri Testimonio allegatorum locurum unde Orationem ist hanc exscripsit sub Titulo Linguae Vallicae recensuit, vel si nóvum Testamentum Londini Lingua Vallica impressum transponi Viennam posset, majoris fidei et plenioris certitudinis argumento foret." Considering that they're talking about Vallia, this seems like a pretty clear mention of Vallica as Welsh in particular ... what do you think? Mattie 16:23, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
It looks like it, but that's a very long document and I haven't found the place where this text occurs! Anyway, "Lingua Vallica" is on our page already, with a couple of citations. But the more the merrier! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:16, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
Ctrl+F "lingua vallica"! :) Mattie 17:20, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
Not with my browser. Tell me what page it's on. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:39, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
The one that's numbered as 286. It's about three-quarters in the first paragraph. Mattie 18:02, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree it is about Welsh, though if the author really thinks Welsh looks like Wallachian (i.e. Romanian) I don't think much of his linguistic powers!
But it is Welsh, and certainly merits citing. No doubt about that. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 20:30, 9 Augusti 2011 (UTC)