Disputatio:Harpastum

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vidi Ioscium delevisse hanc paginam sed nil vidi de causa. estne prohibitum recondere? discipuli mei nunc multum scribunt de ludis athleticis et eos paginas reficere verisimiliter velim...

Ut alibi notatum est, versio iam composita lingua italica scripta fuit, et inde deleta est. Denuo scribere omnino licet si Latine. --Iustinus 09:20, 20 Novembris 2007 (UTC)

rescribenda[fontem recensere]

Haec commentatio omnino rescribenda est. Harpastum est harpastum. Rugby fortasse est harpastum Britannicum, american football fortasse est harpastum Americanum, sed harpastum ipsum est ludus antiquus, et haec commentatio debet illud explicare, nec aliud. --Ioscius (disp) 22:06, 5 Iulii 2008 (UTC)

De nomine[fontem recensere]

"Harpsatum" hodiernum non est ludus antiquus, qui cum pila parva luditur. Morgan habet Follis ovati ludus aut ovatae pilae lusus--Xaverius 23:15, 14 Iunii 2011 (UTC)

Istud videatur esse dixi tres annos abhinc nemini auscultanti =[ . . . -- Ioscius 18:48, 15 Iunii 2011 (UTC)
As has been pointed out for years, the terminology of several ball-handling games is a mess. For harpastum, the only defininition in L&S and in Traupman is 'handball' (with a hyphen in L&S), which Vicipaedia currently gives as manufollium. Handball is played on a usually indoor court not unlike a basketball court. For 'football', played out of doors on a much larger usually grassy field, Traupman gives pedifollium and pediludium. Since he's publishing mainly for a North American market, we can assume he means what's known in North America as football: American football (perhaps with a nod to Canadian football and Australian football, similar games). For 'soccer' ('association football', often outside North America called merely football), Traupman gives only 'pedifollium'. Would somebody like to sort all this out, supported by attestations? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:48, 5 Ianuarii 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from Smith's and Harper's, ancient harpastum seems to have been played with the hands only (like modern handball) but with grappling (like rugby/American football). I doubt it would make sense to apply harpastum to any modern sport without some kind of qualification. Here are some ideas for the main codes of football:

  • Association football: pediludium (consociationis)
  • American football: harpastum Americanum (or better Civitatum Foederatarum?)
  • Canadian football: harpastum Canadense
  • Australian rules football: harpastum Australiense
  • Rugby football: harpastum Rugbeiense
    • Rugby league: harpastum Rugbeiense ligae (harpastum Rugbeiense 13 lusoribus)
    • Rugby union: harpastum Rugbeiense unionis (harpastum Rugbeiense 15 lusoribus)
  • Gaelic football: harpastum Gadelicum

But I don't have sources for any of these. We could also go with pediludium for everything, as in the modern languages. For modern handball, we could use harpastum in some way, but I don't know how we would distinguish it; Morgan's term manufollium seems to be an easier solution. Lesgles (disputatio) 20:58, 9 Aprilis 2016 (UTC)

I was just thinking maybe harpastum Rocheberiense. --Iustinus (disputatio) 03:06, 21 Ianuarii 2017 (UTC)
Was that a Latin name for the town? If so, it might work, but the school does seem to be Rugbeia[1], with an adjective Rugbeiensis[2]. Lesgles (disputatio) 11:50, 21 Ianuarii 2017 (UTC)
In pittaco Rugby School legimus formam adiectivam q.e. Rugbiensis. Eadem forma etiam hic (quamquam hic fons non sine erroribus est). Neander (disputatio) 13:17, 21 Ianuarii 2017 (UTC)
"Rocheberie" est forma apud Librum Wintoniensem ("Domesday Book") scripta, sed scribae illius libri de nominibus locorum Latinis nihil scierunt. Nomina Anglosaxonica, ab incolis et dominis dicta, in scripturam Latino-Normannicam suam convertere solebant. Adiectivum "Rocheberiense" e quo fonte citas, mi Iustine?
Adiectivum "Rugbeiense" iam vidi, "Rugbiense" Neandri gratia scio. Si ipsi Rugb(e)ienses variis modis scribunt, quomodo discernemus?! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:20, 22 Ianuarii 2017 (UTC)
Also, the Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources[3] has the following words:
pedilusor [CL pes, pedis+lusor] , player of football.
camper, or playar at þe fotte balle: ~or PP.
pedipilare [CL pes, pedis+pila] , to play football.
kampyn, ~o PP.
pedipiludium [CL pes, pedis+pila+ludus+-ium] , football.
campynge, ~um PP; porro ludus ad quem mutue recreacionis gracia excercendum convenerant, a quibusdam pedipiludium [altered to pedipililudium] dicitur Mir. Hen. VI III 91.
pedivus [CL pes+-ivus] , of or for a foot (in quot., pila ~a, football).
1363 quidam ad pilam manualem, ~am, et bacularem ‥ se indulgent Foed. VI 417.
PP is the Promptorium parvulorum from 1440, so football here means the "mob football" of the Middle Ages. Lesgles (disputatio) 21:11, 9 Aprilis 2016 (UTC)

Schola et oppidum[fontem recensere]

salvete! Et vocem hymni scholae et sententias oppidi "Rugbeia floreat" esse scio. "Rugbeia" nomen rectum in linga latina esse censeo. Nomen igitur in hac pagina scholae et oppidi mutavi.

Hi, all. I know that "Rugbeia floreat" is both the title of the School hymn, and the motto of the town. I take "Rugbeia" to be the right Latin name. I have therefore changed the name of school and town in this page.

The editor afterwards deleted this comment, but there's nothing wrong with it so I have restored it. Yes, "Rugbeia" is the best name for the town and "schola Rugbeiensis" is the school. We found sources for both. We have categories but no articles on them yet. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:23, 17 Februarii 2018 (UTC)