Disputatio:Cockney

I hope this title is acceptable for Cockney. I used the Mountain (en) < Montaigne (fr) < Montanae (vl) < Montanus (la) form starting with Cocaigne (fr) which is believed to be part of the english etymology - at least in one theory... Alexanderr 07:35, 19 Septembris 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Well, the Latin is pretty good. I'm wary of the made-up name though. I'm glad you thought it out, but anything that has to do with England has doubtless been written about before at some point. As you know, I really don't think we should be making up names for things that are likely to already exist in Latin writings. If you can't find the Latin word for "diocese" in the vulgate, you don't just make it up, right?

Of course tracking down an actual Latin word for cockney proves more interesting than useful. If we check the OED, we find a huge number of definitions for this word. Many of them show up in the citations with Latin glosses. Summary:

A hen's egg, especially if misshapen. Quote: [1598-1611 FLORIO, Caccherelli, cacklings of hens; also egs (1611 egges), as we say cockanegs.]
A "mamma's boy." Quote: c1440 Promp. Parv. 86 Coknay [v.r. cokeney]. Ibid. 281 Kokeney, corinutus, coconellus, vel cucunellus (et hec duo nomina sunt ficta, et derisorie dicta); delicius.
A derisive term for what we yanks would call "city folk." Quote: [1521 WHITINTON Vulg. 39 This cokneys and tytyllynges..[delicati pueri] may abide no sorrow when they come to age..In this great cytees as London, York, Perusy and such..the children be so nycely and wantonly brought up..that comonly they can little good.]
An actual, genuine Cockney. Quote: [1521 WHITINTON Vulg. 39 This cokneys and tytyllynges..[delicati pueri] may abide no sorrow when they come to age..In this great cytees as London, York, Perusy and such..the children be so nycely and wantonly brought up..that comonly they can little good.]

Smith's English-Latin Dictionary, written in the 19th century, only gives the "city folk" definition:

cockney : urbis amator, Hor.: urbānus, Pl.: Liv.: v. CITIZEN. N.B.—Not oppidanus, which expressly excludes reference to the capital.

But again, as interesting as this is, it doesn't get us anywhere. I suppose I can check other modern dictionaries, but I'm not too hopeful. --Iustinus 07:54, 19 Septembris 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Promp. Parv.'s coconellus is surely meant to be a rendering of the form "cockney", even if the relevant sense hadn't developed by 1440. The connection between Cockney and Cockaigne seems to be a later development (from the 1800s, if en:Cockaigne is to be believed) and is probably not etymological, so 'cocanus' is probably a bad idea—not least because the original is surely much different in shape, judging from Sp. cucaña, It. coccagna; at any rate Alexanderr's derivation is based on the odd assumption that "montaigne" is from "montanae" — it is "montanea", fem. of the VL adjective "montaneus" and thus the analogy, were it to be followed, would produce *Cocaneus at the least. —Myces Tiberinus 10:31, 19 Septembris 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the above, I don't think coconellus is persuasive -- because cockney didn't have its linguistic meaning till long after "coconellus" was invented, and because the only source for the word describes it as "fictum". Have I understood correctly? If so, I'd stick with Cockney. But what the article most needs is improvement ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:34, 16 Iunii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, coconellus is a bit of a stretch. Lesgles (disputatio) 18:33, 16 Iunii 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Urbs? Vicus?] Cucaniensis? Vide "Etymology" hic: Cockaigne. However, the connection between Cockaigne and Cockney (coken ey 'a cock's egg') may be sociocultural, rather than linguistic. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:22, 16 Iunii 2016 (UTC)[reply]