Disputatio:Aktion Leben

I edited this for you. I hope the changes weren't to drastic. Feel free to ask if you have questions about any of the changes. --Iustinus 01:11, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits weren't too drastic, but I personally don't see why we need to add (they are against abortion) after pro-life. It would say on the pro-vita article that pro-vita is a political term which means against abortion. Alexanderr 01:20, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that modern political buzzwords should probably be explained. I was especially wary because I don't know if the term is universal, or just an American one (you can perhaps tell me). It's probably not a bad idea to gloss it in any case, especially as a lot of Neo-Latinists are picky about things like that, and you want to play to your audience ;) --Iustinus 01:26, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(this sentence was written before your comment)I am confused as to why the object of the first sentence changed to accusative though, because in the process of writing it I read something that says that any object after adiuvat changes to dative (such as in miserere mei). Also I am confused as to why fetibus changed to gravas. Fetus is an adjective which means pregnant...why must that be changed? Alexanderr 01:27, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also what I meant is that if you visit the english wikipedia or any of the others for that matter there is the term, which is a link to the page about the term. I was saying that we can remove the auxilary information and place "id est contra abortum" and a buch of other information about "pro-vita" on the pro-vita page. (Also pro-vita and pro-choix is on the fr wikipedia so the terms to appear to be international. Alexanderr 01:29, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, adiuvo takes an accusative. Perhaps you're thinking of placere or auxilium ferre? Fetus -a -um does indeed mean "pregnant", but fetus -ûs means "young, offspring, fetus," so when I saw fetibus my first thought was that you meant "women with fetuses", and simplified it to "pregnant women." You will note that the second time it occured I realized what you meant, and used the adjective. To reiterate, the adjective is 1st/2nd declension, but the noun is 4th. --Iustinus 01:34, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay??? I'm confused, but I got the first part about it taking the accusative so that is alright. My only concern now is if the words for teenager and adult which you added are historic, because they aren't in the vulgata nor in the online latin dictionary I'm using. Also if they are (which would be better than any neo-latin) I think the roman idea of youth (20-40) is different from the modern idea so I was wondering if it wouldn't be grammatically incorrect if it would be possible that we re-add the bit "homines feminaque, quae imperavant tredecim annos" with possibly an edit to add in the word for "at least". Alexanderr 01:40, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would "mulieres fetas" be grammatically incorrect though to express "pregnant women"? Alexanderr 01:42, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Pregnant women" could well be mulieres praegnantes or feminae praegnantes. Do you have something against those constructions? IacobusAmor 02:03, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mulieres fetas is fine, grammatically speaking. I'm not sure that's really the best word to describe pregnant humans in prose, though (see here for examples). As for your other question... well I guess I'm going to have to answer it point by point:

for adulescens and adultus, see here, section II. What dictionary are you using?
It is true that the Roman names of ages tend much older than our equivalents: adulescens is said to cover 15-30 (does anyone know what our ancient source on this is, though?), but given things like pro-vita that seems like the least of our worries :P In any case, if adulescens bothers you, I suppose we could use adulenscentulus or maybe even pubescens. Of course if we want to emphasize females, then virgo is really the name of that age group.
Homo (unlike its modern Romance reflexes, like ombre, homme, uomo and so on) does not really mean "adult male." It's closer in meaning to "person." See Usor:Iustinus/Translator's Guide#Words for "man" and "woman" for details.
Femina is likewise probably not the mot juste here, and even if it were, it should be in ... what case were we in again? Accusative plural? So feminas.
I have no idea what you mean by imperavant here. If you are trying to say "who are at least 13 years old" then ... well, I'll have to think about it, but there are some expressions. Perhaps "qui tredecim pluresve annos nati sunt."

I really need to do some real work now, though, so if I am needed for further discussion, it will have to wait. --Iustinus 02:13, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well that was quite a response. Personally I like "mulieres fetas", consider it part of the poetic license. Anyways as we all can see there are dozens of ways to write pregnant women. I found at least two others in the Clemantine vulgate (one in which I don't understand in the least Gn 16:4) and one which roughly translates pregnant to "burden". I like my current version...consider it part of the poetic license...

As for who I mean by who they educate. I mean both males and females, and really don't mind which words are used, but I personally think that the ones up now are a bit of an eye sore. I'd like something shorter, but definetly not Virgo for the females because its also the name of that godess. Anyways besides that I don't know what else to put. Alexanderr 02:22, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Poetic license" is fine if you're writing poetry. I'd worry very much about the style. The only example my dictionary gives of the adjective foetus is from Vergil, and it refers to cows. I therefore wonder whether the term wouldn't be demeaning if applied to women. To avoid that possibility, why not go with praegnans, which is generally unobjectionable and has the advantage that it's immediately understandable by speakers of several European languages, while the adjective foetus is opaque and easily confusible with the noun foetus? IacobusAmor 02:39, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fetus, according to Witakers words means "fertile; pregnant with; full of; having newly brought forth;" and I don't think fertile or pregnant are offesive. And just because it was used in reference to a cow by Vergil doesn't mean that it is offensive or slang, just slightly scientific. Alexanderr 02:49, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, here's Lewis & Short: not just cows, but cattle, foxes, lands, swamps, regions, palms, bears, wolves, sheep, and finally one woman, the wife of a "battered veteran," mentioned as an example of low, common life, in a satire by Juvenal:

I. Pregnant, breeding (mostly poet.).

A. Lit.: lenta salix feto pecori, Verg. E. 3, 83 ; 1, 50: vulpes, Hor. C. 3, 27, 5 .--

2. Transf.

a. Of land, fruitful, productive: (terra) feta parit nitidas fruges, etc., Lucr. 2, 994 ; cf.: terra feta frugibus et vario leguminum genere, * Cic. N. D. 2, 62, 156: loca palustribus ulvis, Ov. M. 14, 103 : regio nec pomo nec uvis, id. P. 1, 7, 13 ; id. F. 1, 662.--Also of plants: palmites, Col. 3, 21, 3 .--

b. In gen., filled with any thing, full: machina armis, Verg. A. 2, 238 : loca furentibus austris, id. ib. 1, 51 : colla serpentis veneno, Sil. 17, 448 .--

B. Trop., full of.--With abl.: feta furore Megaera, Sil. 13, 592 : praecordia bello, id. 17, 380 : praecordia irā, id. 11, 203 . --With gen.: fetas novales Martis, Claud. Bell. Get. 25 ; and in a Gr. construction: fetus Gradivo mentem, id. 10, 14 .--

II. That has brought forth, newly delivered: veniebant fetam amicae gratulatum, Varr. ap. Non. 312, 12: agiles et fetae (opp. tardiores et gravidae), Col. 7, 3 fin. : ursa, Ov. M. 13, 803 : lupa, Verg. A. 8, 630 : ovis, id. E. 1, 50 ; Ov. F. 2, 413: qua feta jacebat uxor et infantes ludebant, Juv. 14, 167 .--Absol.: insueta gravis temptabunt pabula fetas, Verg. E. 1, 49.

These examples would make me wary of the word in reference to women in prose, especially when a more widely intelligible term is available. IacobusAmor 03:09, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine replace it. You have my blessing, but when we start writting about pregnant foxes we definetly are going to use "fetus". :P Alexanderr 03:13, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Title[fontem recensere]

Shouldn't the title of this article be in Latin, followed by "Germanice: Aktion Leben" in parentheses? IacobusAmor 02:08, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. The German name is in the title of the english article, and if anyone if searching for information about Aktion Leben in Latin I don't think they'd change the name (just as they wouldn't substitute the latin word for "Target" for the retail store Target). Alexanderr 02:11, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I rather like the idea of titling such an article "Scopos (Anglice: Target)." :) IacobusAmor 02:48, 8 Augusti 2006 (UTC)[reply]