Usor:Gesalbte

Salve. I'm Gesalbte, a student from Connecticut, U.S. I with everyone could live in peace and prosperity.

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en-4 This user has near native speaker knowledge of English. zh-3 这位用户的中文达到高级水平。 de-2 Dieser Benutzer beherrscht Deutsch auf fortgeschrittenem Niveau. la-1 Hic usor simplici lingua Latina conferre potest. ja-1 この利用者は初級の日本語ができます。
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The Salvation Army

The Salvation Army International Headquarters, 110 Victoria Street, London.

Well I think we may need a pagna for this topic... Just a few sentences could be better than nothing? 119.123.11.102 10:47, 26 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

"Trombones canunt". Satis?

That's not funny - - Salvus Acies ordo christianus est.. bla bla bla... By the way I'm not sure that Salvation Army in latin is 'Salvus Acies'... 116.25.164.137 16:22, 27 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

Pitkäranta gives Exercitus salvificus. --Neander 21:16, 27 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

Clipeus Latinitatis - Neanderi?! [1] No results found for "Exercitus salvificus". 119.123.8.127 08:35, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

I guess what anon really meant was, thanks, Neander, for finding an attested Latin name beyond the reach of a Google search. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:55, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

I should find it highly unlikely that in all the publications of the Holy See in the last century and a half there has been no mention of "General" Booth's organisation. I should find it even more unlikely that it would be referred to as anything other than "Exercitus Salvationis". Exercitus salvificus would suggest that it effectively brings about salvation - a "saving army". Exercitus salutis could also mean 'health army'. My feeling is that, if in doubt, one should opt for the most recognisable form. Tergum Violinae

Spiritual salvation was/is the goal of the salvation army; originally they were more overt by preaching the bible in soup kitchens during the previous depression.See their website which describes their evangelical mission to spread christianity: "Leadership in The Salvation Army is provided by commissioned and ordained officers who are recognised as fully accredited ministers of religion." and "Raised to evangelise, the Army spontaneously embarked on schemes for the social betterment of the poor." In other words, receive our help and hear our word.--Rafaelgarcia 11:29, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

A click around other wikipaediae on the subject shows the "salvation" part in the genitive: "Leger des Heils, Esercito della Salvezza, Armee du Salut etc etc. The Salvation Army may proclaim salvation, but they would hardly claim to effect it! -- [Anon]

The argument "it works like that in one foreign language I know; therefore it must work the same way in another" sometimes fails. One of the things that makes languages so interesting.

"The Salvation Army may proclaim salvation, but they would hardly claim to effect it!" is (I think) contradicted near the beginning of the en:wiki article: William Booth described the organization's approach: "The three ‘S's’ best expressed the way in which the Army administered to the 'down and outs': first, soup; second, soap; and finally, salvation.". Or would you also argue as regards soup and soap that the Army may proclaim them but "would hardly claim to put them into effect"? My experience speaks otherwise: in Halifax, Nova Scotia, they didn't just proclaim soup and soap to me, they effectively provided them. Maybe, if I had given them more time, they would have saved me as well. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:14, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

I think you have missed something rather fundamental about the Christian faith. Even a group on the fringe of Christianity like the SA would not claim to 'effect' salvation - that is done only by God's grace. They can put soap in your hand and soup in your bowl, but can only preach the good news of salvation to you. The 'salvific' part is God's action. It may all seem a bit technical or even esoteric, but what I'm saying is that 'salvificus' (a Christian Latin word, not a classical one) is not the right one here. To answer the initial question, I shall create a page based on a translation of the entry in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church ed Cross. TV

Sounds an excellent idea. On the other issue I defer to esoteric theologians, of course, but do keep in mind the parallelism of Booth's claim. Anon may say "they would hardly claim to effect it", and you may say the same, TV, but more important (in this context) is what Booth said. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:53, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

Exercitus Salvationis = "army of saving" clearly is not nearly as good latin as "Exercitus Salvificus" = "saving army"

The saving aspect of the SA is apparently both physical (providing food and soap) and spiritual (providing literature)

Anyway, I wouldn't think that merely because "salvificus" is church latin that this would disqualify it for naming a specifically christian institution. It is clearly formed according to latin rules.

And I hope you are not proposing to ignore all ecclesiastical latin in favor of "pure classical" words when describing christian/church related things! Likewise isn't ecclesia a christian latin word? Do you propose that we substitute some classical word for "ecclesia"?? I hope not!

And besides, this is a nonissue since exercitus salvificus apparently is already attested in the latin literature. --Rafaelgarcia 18:11, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

The last point there is the killer for anybody who'd prefer something else: the attested form should probably be the lemma, with imagined alternatives to follow. How useful it would be to be able to search for specific terms in the entirety of the archives of a modern resource like http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net! ¶ Even in the absence of an attestation, salvificus sounds better to this writer than a genitive would, but the issue of adjectives vs. genitives for such things is an ancient & unresolved issue among some of us. IacobusAmor 18:58, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

The noun phrase " Exercitus + Noun_GEN " always denotes a possessive relation (exercitus Achaeorum, Atheniensium, Dacorum, Samnitium; populi Romani; Agamemnonis, L.Luculli, etc) or a locative relation (exercitus Africae, Pannoniae, Syriae, etc.). Now, it looks like the only way the phrase "Exercitus Salvationis" will make sense is to think of Mr.Booth as "Mr.Salvation". Not a bad idea, after all?   :–)   ||| WRT salvificus, in theology, it's a matter of course that God finishes the job, but unless there is any "salvific" try on the human side, God will do nothing. Nor does fides salvifica "effect" salvation without God's grace, yet it's called salvifica. How do you explain that, TV? --Neander 22:08, 28 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

I think you should know well enough, Rafel, that I would not propose classical Latin in favour of Ecclesiastical. I just feel that the folks at Pitkaranta are misusing a theological word. 'Gratia salvifica', 'fides salvifica', 'salvificum Dei opus' are OK, but it is not a word that would normally be used of people or organisations. Just to pre-empt another potential contention:-I am aware that the nature of Vicipaedia means that almost all articles are written from a Roman Catholic perspective. I have tried to correct the balance here and there. On the Christian status of the SA, I believe that the RC church recognises them as a Christian body (though a defective one like all protestant churches). Some evangelical christians however do not recognise them as Christian because they have no sacraments - an irrelevant to Rome as no Protestant churches have proper sacraments anyway. As I said earlier, there must be reference somewhere to the SA from the Vatican - from Cardinal Kasper's office one might have thought - and this would be the better Latin form to use. Exercitus Salvificus may look neat to the grammarian, but it seems wrong from a neutral theological POV. TV

If there is any POV it isn't because we sanction it in any way. We try to correct whenever possible. The idea of a word being a "theological word" only applicable to describing God actions, is a new one to me. If there is such a thing, I don't think it applies to salvificus. According to L&S "Salvificus" merely means "saving" in adjective form, just as "salvatio" means saving in substantive form, and "salvare" means saving in verb form. The fact that christians have used the word to describe spiritual salvation does not in this writer's opinion coopt the range of the word or restrict it in anyway. It should be taken to mean saving in all possible religious and non religious senses.--Rafaelgarcia 12:00, 29 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

According to the Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary (perhaps the most widely used dead-tree dictionary in the United States), salvific, the English word derived from Latin salvificus, means 'having the intent or power to save or redeem'. Surely the Salvation Army has an intent to redeem? IacobusAmor 12:18, 29 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

Oh, Well, I apologise for what I said which is ambiguous and has caused, maybe, a little misunderstand.

It seems that I haven't blended in western culture very well..

What I meant was to say that 'Oh? Neander?! Clipeus Latinitatis?! nice to meet you.! And do you sure that the correct translation is Exercitus salvificus?.. But google disagrees..'

And I was personally agree with Exercitus salvificus this translation, because it similates to something like Expeditio sacra..

May you forgive a silly sucker..- - 119.123.1.214 16:38, 29 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

There's really no problem, but thanks very much for explaining! As you can see, you have contributed to a very lively discussion. :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 19:21, 29 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

No problem, indeed. Welcome to the group, and please consider getting a nickname like most of us and telling a bit background info of yourself. The more we know of each other, the less there's room for misunderstanding. Best, Neander 22:26, 29 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

囧..Back to the topic, I do think that Exercitus Salutionis (N+Adj)may lead readers to consider it attempts to taunt the SA, while Exercitus Salvificus could be well accepted if the Salvation Army wants a latin name...

To give a conclusion, perhaps we must look for certain publications of the Holy See which have mentioned the SA..Unfortunately I don't have such a way yet..Gesalbte 08:22, 30 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)

'Sunt Proletaria Dominus Orbis'

'Sunt Proletaria Dominus Orbis' is this a classical latin phrase? and what does it mean? (the poor controled a round dominator?)
And, is this phrase correct in grammer? proletaria seems to be pl. while the dominus is single...
210.192.100.179 06:37, 20 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Sententiam nusquam inveni. --Alex1011 08:06, 20 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The proletariat is (could be? shall be? is going to be?) the (true) dominator of the world?65.49.2.158 08:25, 20 Maii 2009 (UTC)

'There are lowest-class things, master of the land'. Putting esse first usually makes it existential (in English, 'there is/are'); proletaria (neuter) are obviously things belonging to proletarii, people of the lowest class. The Latin seems odd to me, but then lots of things do, so that may not be a useful criterion. IacobusAmor 14:07, 22 Maii 2009 (UTC)

If we are trying to translate "Proletarians are the master of the world", then in latin use plebs (usually meaning lower class, common people, and attested in the sense of proletarians in Morgan's gloss): so that we would have "Plebes mundum regunt" = "The proletarians rule the world"--Rafaelgarcia 22:33, 22 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that is should be Sunt Proletarii Dominus Orbis?
This odd inscription is found on a wood board in an old photo, and not very clear. Thus, I chech it again and feel it may be Proletarii instead of Proletaria. One way or another, it seems impossible that is reads as Proletarius.
So it comes odd to me that why a pl. noun can be modified by an 'esse+single' structure?
If somebody let me to 'correct' the grammer confidently here, I may suggest Est Proletariatus Dominus Orbis.Gesalbte 17:17, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

In the structure "A = B," A can be singular and B can be plural. Your woodcarving may be trying to say "Proletarians are the master of the world," Proletarii sunt dominus mundi/orbis (with sunt oddly placed). The examples in Cassell's imply that plebs, meaning 'the common people', is ordinarily used in the singular. IacobusAmor 17:33, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Salve. Well, in Latin, if we're saying that A(pl.) = B(sing.), shouldn't we use the 'est' form of sum(esse)?

E.g. Discipli classis V est globus bonus. / Discipli classis V sunt lusoris boni.?

Are above sentences correct in grammer? If the answer is affirmative, why not Est Proletarii Dominus Orbis?Gesalbte 17:57, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm wrong. The form of esse should be according to former one, not the latter.

Thus, Discipli classis V est globus bonus. should be fixed as Discipli classis V sunt globus bonus., and your Proletarii sunt dominus mundi/orbis is reasonable.Gesalbte 18:06, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

In English & Latin, the verb agrees with the subject, which tends to be the first noun heard or seen. IacobusAmor 18:11, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Orbis(Gen) or Orbisis(is this non-exist?)?Gesalbte 18:09, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Orbis is both nominative & genitive; the form orbisis is a surprise! IacobusAmor 18:12, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's both nom and gen... I had a blurred vision on the topic, faint!Gesalbte 18:14, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

"Est Proletarii Dominus Orbis" makes utterly no sense: ="There is a lord of the proletarius's circle."--Rafaelgarcia 18:21, 23 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Absolute me.. I've confessed that the form 'est' is incorrect...

My suggestion was Sunt Proletarii Dominus Orbis..Gesalbte 05:24, 24 Maii 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion: "Proletarii sunt domini orbis terrarum". --Neander 09:58, 24 Maii 2009 (UTC)

One way or another, it seems that the questioner doesn't will to have an translation of such an imagined english meaning at all. I've given the conclusion that the carving may be Sunt Proletarii Dominus Orbis. However, if you want to translate something as "Proletarians are the Master of the World", Proletarii sunt domini orbis terrarum could be a dremendous entity. But what does it mean exactly at all? Obviewsly that the proletarians are not ruling the world since ever and may not be able to do so in the foreseeable future. Could your suggestion latin phrase indicates that the proletarians create the world, thus they should be able to rule this world, otherwise, blablabla..

It sounds like some marxism mottos this way. Anyway, such an expression comes odd to me...Gesalbte 15:51, 24 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand your meaning because your english is not quite good enough. However, putting the verb first in such a latin sentence creates a very different meaning "Sunt proletarii dominus orbis (terrarum)" says "there are proletarians, the lord of the circle (of lands)"--Rafaelgarcia 16:17, 24 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Oh, gosh...

Forgive me. In this case (if you want to translate 'proletariat is the master of the world'), I will suggest Proletarii Erunt Domini Orbis/Orbis Terrarum/MundiGesalbte 16:21, 24 Maii 2009 (UTC)

You've just taken Neander's suggestion and inserted a different tense in it (erunt for sunt). So what you've said is Proletarians will be masters of the world, which is OK (with me), but different! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:30, 25 Maii 2009 (UTC) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:36, 25 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Aeroportus Internationalis Tochianus

2nd Terminal of AIT.

In this page, Tocio, the author use Aeroportus Internationalis Tochianus(東京国際空港) as a nomenclature for Tokyo International Airport. I'm wandering why it is not Aeroportus Internationalis Tocionis, in which we use the genitive case of Tocio, instead of an adjective, just like the the phrase Portus Tocionis? Gesalbte 14:06, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

In Latin it is often better to use an adjective rather than a genitive in such phrases. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:09, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The issue of adjectives vs. genitives for such things is an ancient & unresolved issue among some of us. by IacobusAmor. So what the difference between adj. and gen.? In addtion, I haven't found anything about this topic in Wheelock's..Gesalbte 14:28, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

To see the preference look at how latin names things in literature. Imperium Romanum not Imperium Romae or Imperium Romanorum. This is the case expecially with regard to naming things associated with towns, cities and persons. It's the difference between "Tokyo Airport" and "Tokyo's airport"; In english it is also more common to say the first adiectival phrase rather than use the genetive. Do you really want to emphasize in the name that the city of tokyo owns the airport? In fact, is that even true? On the other hand, if comparing airports between different cities that it would make more sense to use the genetive."Tokyo's airport is nice than Newyork's."--Rafaelgarcia 14:39, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

[Written before Rafael's contribution above, and I kept trying to post it, but it kept getting obliterated by further changes.]—As you intuitively know, adjectives & genitives convey similar information, so your question really concerns idiom. Compare, noting the (standard) order of the words:

Internationalis Aeroportus Tocianus = 'Tokyo International Airport'

internationalis Tocii aeroportus = 'Tokyo's international airport'

Both phrases are fine, but I think most of us would hear the first one as a proper name and the second one as a common noun. As for Aeroportus Internationalis Tochianus, I can't explain it: if I'm remembering Bradley's Arnold right, Classical Latin doesn't ordinarily accept two adjectives in a row (without an intervening et or other connector). ¶ Then there's the question of whether Cicero would have accepted the newfangled word internationalis at all; its meaning is obvious, and that's a point in its favor, but one wonders whether he wouldn't have been happier with inter civitates or some such construction. IacobusAmor 14:43, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The best thing to do with Bradley's Arnold is to commit it to amnesia. It nearly killed Latin in the English speaking world. Dreadful book.

Sorry, I didn't mean mess you up.--Rafaelgarcia 14:51, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

No problem; on this issue, we seem to be on the same wavelength anyway. IacobusAmor 15:16, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

By refering Classical Latin doesn't ordinarily accept two adjectives in a row, you mean that Aeroportus Internationalis Tochianus should be rectify as Internationalis Aeroportus Tochianus or something else?

I mean, in most of the occations, we treat multiple adjective modified nominal phrases into a from-small-to-large sequence, just like in French. With the way it is, isn't Aeroportus Internationalis Tochianus a classical expression? Gesalbte 23:23, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The order of adjectives can be much more complex than a size-based sequence. In English, for example, the obligatory order (known intuitively by competent native speakers) is widely taken to be: determiner(s), number, intensifier, opinion, size, length, shape, width, participle, age, color, origin, material. For example, these six big new red Spanish tables is acceptable, but these six big red Spanish new tables and these big six new red Spanish tables and these big six red Spanish new tables are ungrammatical. Latin doesn't pile up adjectives like this. IacobusAmor 00:53, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I think that rule refers to two adjectives used attributively, whereas here it is a "proper name" and with proper names, perhaps a different standard applies. Even when it is used attributively, I think it depends on the precise idea expressed. "The tall red cup" = "calix ruber altusque" -"the cup which is tall and red" whereas "calix altus ruber" = "The tall cup which is red" or "the tall cup, the one which is red".--Rafaelgarcia 23:36, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Then what if an adj. or a gen. is set before the noun it modifies? E.g. "ruber calix altus"?

And, if I want to say an angels' donkeys' society (a society formed by a few donkeys who belong to the angels), can I use "societas asellorum angelorum"? This phrase mean a society that formed by donkeys who belong to the angels or both the donkeys and angels(误)?Gesalbte 23:50, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Here, perhaps you can absolute me if I'm asking moronly. What's the difference between "et" and "que"? Gesalbte 00:01, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

"Et, and, simply connects words or clauses; -que combines more closely into one connected whole" (Allen & Greenough 324a). IacobusAmor 00:32, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

-Que is the same as and but added as a suffix. Just like of is the same as 's in english. That's a good example: societas asellorum angelorum = angels' donkeys' society but societas asellorum angelorumque = society of angels and donkeys--Rafaelgarcia 00:13, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

societas asellorum angelorum?societas asellorum angelorum? what's the difference?Gesalbte 00:15, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

None methinks.--Rafaelgarcia 01:17, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I mean, here, societas asellorum angelorum = angels' donkeys' society but societas asellorum angelorum = society of angels and donkeys, you mean the two same clauses have different meanings?Gesalbte 03:18, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I mean the two clauses societas ansellorum angelorum and societas agelorum ansellorum in latin have the same meaning but are utterly ambiguous as to what each gentitive is modifying. Perhaps the context can decide which is meant, but given only this phrase the two phrases are equivalent.Word order is not as determining a factor in latin as in english or other languages. The two phrases societas ansellorum angelorum (society of asses of angels)and societas angelorum ansellorumque (society of angles and asses) are different. By mistake I left out the -que above, which causes the confusion. Sorry.--Rafaelgarcia 03:43, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see..Thus:

A(nom)+B(gen)+C(gen) means A belongs to B which belongs to C or A belongs to C which belongs to B ; while:

A(nom)+B(gen)+Cque(gen) means A belongs both to B and C....

So, Senatus Populusque Romanus means both the senate and people belongs to Rome..--Gesalbte 14:31, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Ordinatio Consociatas Shanghainum or Consociatas Ordinatio Shanghainum?Gesalbte 23:43, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Both are ungrammatical. Ordinatio (ordering/arrangement) is in the nominative singular, Consociatas (united) is in the accusative plural, and Shanghainum I don't recognize but may be accusative or nominative singular.--Rafaelgarcia 23:54, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Faint. I thought that "Consociatas" is an adjective... I mean in such casus (translation of Shanghai Cooperation Organization), obviewsly that this organization is not in the City of Shanghai, then I should use adj. instead of gen. of "Shanghai"(Am I right?). Then should the second adj.("Consociata"? "Consocia"? "Consociatio"?) be put before this "Ordinatio" or after it?Gesalbte 23:59, 27 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Usually for cities adjectives are created using -ensis, for organization latin has lots of similar sounding synonyms (see Organizatio). In this case I would put Shanghai Organizaition = Consociatio Shanghaiensis. But I am not sure what cooperation means--cooperative, corporation??--Rafaelgarcia 00:18, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I'm wandering which kind of word order for heavy-modified nominal phrase is the most acceptable in classical latin..

That is, the translation of en:Shanghai Cooperation Organization in latin should be Consona/Commune Organizatio Shanghaiensis or Organizatio Consona/Commune Shanghaiensis?--Gesalbte 14:57, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Since it is a voluntary organization for mutual cooperation to which states are members, I would render it as Consociatio Cooperationis Shanghaiensis (A genetive wedged between a noun and an adjective)--Rafaelgarcia 15:59, 28 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The translation Consociatio Cooperationis Shanghaiensis is magnificent. Anyway, may I ask that why adjective "Cooperationis" is placed after the noun "consociatio" instead of before it?--Gesalbte 10:18, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Such genitives usually follow nouns; however, if the name is to be an instance of hyperbaton, the adjective should be the first item, not the last, and the phrase should therefore be Shanghaiensis Cooperationis Consociatio. Whether proper names & titles should be in hyperbaton is a question that only a more experienced student than I can answer. ¶ If Cassell's is right, cooperatio isn't Classical Latin, whose best words for English 'cooperation' are (according to Cassell's) opera and auxilium. White's dictionary offers the same terms, but adds that Cicero used consociatio [!] to mean 'cooperation'.IacobusAmor 10:37, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)

You mean, that Cooperationis Consociatio Shanghaiensis is not acceptable?--Gesalbte 16:51, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Iacobus is right about the perferred word order, although I don't know how important to strictly follow the preferred order, especially for proper names of organizations. Your word order is not "wrong" but "wierd", emphasizing Shanghaiensis and Cooperationis, implying either that there is another such organization perhaps Cooperationis Consociatio Londoniensis that the writer is working to distinguish clearly or that there is another Cosociatio Shanghaiensis that you are trying to distinguish.

Cooperatio is late latin for cooperation (a working together). Opera and auxilium are close synonyms but imply more of a one-sided help. Perhaps consociatio is also possible but it specifically means the coming together of friends in some alliance, without implying necessarily what the alliance is for. Perhaps it's a typo? Cooperation for Corporation?--Rafaelgarcia 17:06, 29 Maii 2009 (UTC)

What is "True Cross" in Latin?

Can't find the page, so I have to ask here. I'm sorry if this is kind of stupid.
I personally regard it as "Vera Crux", but I'm not sure it is quite formal.Gesalbte 17:31, 25 Septembris 2009 (UTC)

"Vera Crux" is OK. See for example the brief quotation in Latin on this page: [2]. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:11, 25 Septembris 2009 (UTC)

Asking about a translation correctness

Salve, Dr.Neader~ Recently I translated a Anglice motto 'Our path leads to the Kingdom.' to Latina as "Cursus Nostra Ad Regnum Caelorum Versus.", but I'm not sure whether it is applicable. So what's your sugestion..?

Gratias again for everything.. 119.123.8.47 07:04, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC) ..! It's me.. Gesalbte 07:06, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Nostra via in regnum ducit? ~ fert? IacobusAmor 12:44, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Salve, Gesalbte. [I was just about to send this, but Iacobus was quicker.] Let's take morphology first: it should be "Cursus noster ad Regnum Caelorum Versus", because the gender of "cursus" is masculine. Notice that "ad ... versus" emphasises the direction: our "run" is to the direction of the Kingdom, or something like that. Because I do not know what this is all about, I'm not sure how "to" is to be understood. It may be of some thelogical importance, if you say "to the (gates of) Heaven" (in which case, the proper preposition is "ad") or "into the Kingdom" (through the gates, or something -- in which case, you should probably use "in" [+ accusative]). It may also be theologically significant, whether you say "Caeli" 'of the Heaven' or "Caelorum" 'of the Heavens', I don't know. But giving up hair-splitting, my proposal is: Noster ad Regnum Decursus. I prefer "decursus" which may better express the measures taken and the completion of a course. Hope this helps. --Neander 12:59, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

As your gloss recognizes, "the kingdom" in English doesn't mention any heaven, but the original post implies that heaven is in someone's mind; and since it's usually conceived as being upward, in the sky, I wonder if decursus, which basically means 'a running downward' doesn't put the wrong slant on things, so to speak. Also, your gloss is a noun-phrase, but the querist wants it to be a complete sentence, with a verb equivalent to 'leads to', for which Cassell's says classical attestations support ducit in + acc. and fert in + acc. IacobusAmor 13:43, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, having posted my reply I became aware of the fact you now make me aware of. Somehow I was stuck to the Latin phrase. If we have to translate "Our path leads to the Kingdom", your "Nostra via in regnum ducit / fert" looks fine. --Neander 14:20, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes I see a typo half a millisecond after clicking the servare button—and there's nothing to be done but wait and watch as the typo gets published. These things happen! IacobusAmor 14:32, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Gratias.!

Furthermore, are 'ducit' et 'fert' the 3rd personal singular number form of 'duco' et 'fero'?

Now I've noticed that I formally paid less attention than I should to that the adjectives should be changed to the same gender as their nouns'. Little more about this point, in Subjective+Objective+Verb kind of sentences, should the objective switch to the same gender as the subjective's? E.g. Shall I say 'Mali(nt) fructus(m) sunt.' or 'Mali(nt) fructum(nt) sunt.'?

Gesalbte 17:35, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Adjectives follow in gender the nouns to which they are attached. Nouns don't and can't normally change gender. Malus and fructus are both nouns.

When the verb is "est" there is no object. You have a subject and a complement, both in the nominative case.

When the verb is "est", the usually preferred word order is "A est B".

So, Mālī (nom. pl.) sunt fructūs (nom. pl.). Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:47, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

--

Why it should be 'nostra via' instead of 'via nostra'? Gesalbte 17:40, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Either is possible. Word order is fairly free in Latin and partly depends on the required emphasis. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:47, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

The emphasis...so 'nostra via' and 'via nostra', which is emphasizing 'via' and which is emphasizing 'nostra'??Gesalbte 19:10, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

About the gender..What gender should an adj. use when it attaches to 2 or more nouns?
E.g. Shall we say 'filii filiaeque lumines' or 'filii filiaeque luminae'? (google gives f.)..Gesalbte 18:34, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what Google has to do with it. You need a dictionary that will tell you which words are adjectives. Lumen is not an adjective, and your phrases make no sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:57, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

T T. Now I can only find Collins (Collins Latin Dictionary & Grammar)... up there I did it careless.. It should be 'filii filiaeque luces' or 'filii filiaeque luciae'?

Google sometimes can give the right anwser.. 'filii filiaeque nostrae' can find 3 results while 'filii filiaeque nosteri' can find none....Gesalbte 19:06, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion: Dear Gesalbte, it seems to me that what you need is a systematic course in Latin, which is something nobody of us can give you. Therefore, I strongly suggest you visit our Porta eruditionis which contains a lot of stuff that may be useful to you; for example, an internet-based Latin grammar. We heartily welcome people, such as you, who are interested in Latin. But the more you know Latin, the better questions you can ask. Optime valeas, Neander 20:14, 4 Maii 2009 (UTC)