Disputatio:Universitas Columbiae
Mea quidem sententia debet esse Universitas Columbia (vide hic et hic). Nisi quis intercesserit, nomen paginae brevi mutabo. --Neander 13:02, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- Verba ipsius sigilli ([1]) sunt: SIGILLVM COLLEGII COLVMBIAE NOVI EBORACI. Sic casus genetivus, sed nonne est casus nominativus ergo Collegium Columbiae, revera 'Columbia's College'? (Columbia est Novus Mundus.) ¶ Et cave ne omittas Novi Eboraci, verba locativa (Anglice: in New York) ! IacobusAmor 13:29, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- N.B. Elsewhere in Vicipaedia, it's also (always?) Universitas Columbiana, so those instances may need redirects. ¶ Isn't the usual pattern to make the English noun into a Latin adjective? Brown University = Universitas Brunensis. Harvard University = Universitas Harvardiana. Yale University = Universitas Yalensis. IacobusAmor 13:40, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- Ita quidem. Altera via est ea, quam sequuntur fontes quos adtuli, nec non sigillum quod adtulisti, nam nihil obstat quin genetivus ("Collegii Columbiae") vocabulo "Sigillum" attributus reapse nominativo casu sit "Collegium Columbia" (ubi Columbia est "substantive attributum"). --Neander 13:51, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I suspected as much, like Urbs Roma, non Urbs Romae, et Urbs Novum Eboracum, non Urbs Novi Eboraci ; but the nub of my point is that in English, or at least in my English, the noun Columbia in the structure Columbia University doesn't have the same "attributive feel" as the noun New York in the structure New York City. That's why my first thought in translating 'Columbia University' would have been to use an adjective, in parallel with Universitas Harvardiana ; or, failing that, a genitive; or, then as a third choice, an attributive in the nominative. That could just be my idiolect (and therefore negligible); however, if other native speakers of English agree, we'd want to know the native language of the people who coined and used the phrase Universitas Columbia, so as to estimate their authority in the matter: maybe they wouldn't have a native-speakerish "feel" for the syntax. ¶ Alternatively, some Latin text (not yet found) emanating from Columbia itself may offer dispositive proof as to which version is best. IacobusAmor 14:18, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- With names of universities, I would advise, always start with the page Nomina universitatum Latina decreto adoptata developed by Iustinus. On that page there's a link to the seal (presumably a nineteenth-century seal) of this institution when it was called "Columbia College". The seal reads SIGILLUM COLLEGII COLUMBIAE NOVI EBORACI. We may not like those genitives, but there they are [added later: but I agree that this could support Neander's "Collegium Columbia" as well as "Collegium Columbiae"; and I see that Iacobus had already adduced this seal. I read too hastily ...].
- That's the beginning of the enquiry. Is there a more recent official Latin name? There are certainly cases of "Universitas Columbiae (Novi Eboraci/in urbe Novo Eboraco/Noveboracensis)", found via Google, that don't have any connection with Vicipaedia. A presumption, therefore, that the present page name was thoughtfully chosen.
- Whether the three examples I saw on Google outweigh Neander's, I don't know. We want the name that is officially used by the university. There must surely be one. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:10, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- The trouble is indeed that the sigillum doesn't clinch the case. It's ambiguous because both the phrase "Collegium Columbiae" and the phrase "Collegium Columbia" would be "Collegii Columbiae" in the genitive. We need a better source, but until that moment, my sources fare better, faut de mieux. --Neander 15:24, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- "Collegium Columbiae" scribitur hic. --Fabullus 15:32, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- [Written at same time as Fabullus:] Hmm. I'm not so sure, Neander! Your sources are Ephemeris (not necessarily authoritative) and the University of Bologna. Did they get it right, that's the question. Now I can find you (search for "Universitas" on this page) a fellow who says that his degree certificate bears the words "Universitas Columbiae". Did he get it right? Quite possibly, I would say ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:37, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- En, locus a Fabullo adlatus argumentum meum resolvit! Taceo. Omnibus collocutoribus gratiam habens Neander 16:04, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- [Written at same time as Fabullus:] Hmm. I'm not so sure, Neander! Your sources are Ephemeris (not necessarily authoritative) and the University of Bologna. Did they get it right, that's the question. Now I can find you (search for "Universitas" on this page) a fellow who says that his degree certificate bears the words "Universitas Columbiae". Did he get it right? Quite possibly, I would say ... Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:37, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- "Collegium Columbiae" scribitur hic. --Fabullus 15:32, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- The trouble is indeed that the sigillum doesn't clinch the case. It's ambiguous because both the phrase "Collegium Columbiae" and the phrase "Collegium Columbia" would be "Collegii Columbiae" in the genitive. We need a better source, but until that moment, my sources fare better, faut de mieux. --Neander 15:24, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I suspected as much, like Urbs Roma, non Urbs Romae, et Urbs Novum Eboracum, non Urbs Novi Eboraci ; but the nub of my point is that in English, or at least in my English, the noun Columbia in the structure Columbia University doesn't have the same "attributive feel" as the noun New York in the structure New York City. That's why my first thought in translating 'Columbia University' would have been to use an adjective, in parallel with Universitas Harvardiana ; or, failing that, a genitive; or, then as a third choice, an attributive in the nominative. That could just be my idiolect (and therefore negligible); however, if other native speakers of English agree, we'd want to know the native language of the people who coined and used the phrase Universitas Columbia, so as to estimate their authority in the matter: maybe they wouldn't have a native-speakerish "feel" for the syntax. ¶ Alternatively, some Latin text (not yet found) emanating from Columbia itself may offer dispositive proof as to which version is best. IacobusAmor 14:18, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- Ita quidem. Altera via est ea, quam sequuntur fontes quos adtuli, nec non sigillum quod adtulisti, nam nihil obstat quin genetivus ("Collegii Columbiae") vocabulo "Sigillum" attributus reapse nominativo casu sit "Collegium Columbia" (ubi Columbia est "substantive attributum"). --Neander 13:51, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)
- N.B. Elsewhere in Vicipaedia, it's also (always?) Universitas Columbiana, so those instances may need redirects. ¶ Isn't the usual pattern to make the English noun into a Latin adjective? Brown University = Universitas Brunensis. Harvard University = Universitas Harvardiana. Yale University = Universitas Yalensis. IacobusAmor 13:40, 30 Maii 2009 (UTC)