Disputatio:Systema aerarium foederale
Foederale aerarium systema ?? This seems to be to me the English/German word order, but not the Latin: res publica, not publica res; senatus Romanus, not Romanus senatus. --Alex1011 14:08, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry to interject out of order but... Isn't the above an argument for Systema aerarium foederale? res publica ->noun adjective; senatus Romanus -? noun adjective; systema foederale -> noun adjective. Thus I don't follow the argument.--Rafaelgarcia 00:56, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Well, systema aerarium foederale is that what I am argueing for contra Iacobum. --Alex1011 07:46, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry to interject out of order but... Isn't the above an argument for Systema aerarium foederale? res publica ->noun adjective; senatus Romanus -? noun adjective; systema foederale -> noun adjective. Thus I don't follow the argument.--Rafaelgarcia 00:56, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Bradley's Arnold, Introduction, #85:
- <<When a noun is combined both with an adjective and a genitive, the usual order is this—
- Vera animi magnitudo. True greatness of mind.>>
- <<When a noun is combined both with an adjective and a genitive, the usual order is this—
- Ergo, "Federal System of Reserves" = Foederale Aerariorum Systema. IacobusAmor 14:15, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
"reserve" is here translated as an adjective, "reserval". This kind of "genetive" is often translated as an adjective, here: aerarius, aeraria, aerarium. According to your logic it would be foederale aerarii systema. --Alex1011 14:22, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, objective nouns in English can have an adjectival force: a dinner of steak is a steak dinner. English reserves is plural, so that's what I thought you were translating; but I've just now looked up aerarium and see that it's singular and basically means 'treasury'; so what your formulation means is 'federal system of the exchequer', which according to Bradley's Arnold would usually take the order Foederale Aerarii Systema. ¶ You're treating 'reserves' as though it were synonymous with 'treasury'; that may be OK, if economists regard it as such, but my recollection is that there are so many kinds of monetary aggregates—M1, M2, and so on—that the concepts may not be perfectly aligned. ¶ Is there some sense in which this "system" differs from a mere aerarium foederale? or are you saving that term for the U.S. national bank (the one that Andrew Jackson abolished)? or what? IacobusAmor 15:16, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
In English it is "reserve" singular. I take "system of reserve" as "reserve system". I translated "reserve" by the adjectiv "aerarium", which means "pertaining to money" but at the same time recalls "aerarium" which is "treasury" or "reserve".
- This singular–plural business is half the fun of objective nouns! Conceptually in English, many are plural, though they look singular when they fall to the left of the nouns they modify: a bank examiner is an examiner of banks, a checkbook is a book of checks, a fingerboard is a board for fingers, a football is a ball for feet, a handshake is a shake of hands, a toothbrush is a brush for teeth, a turkey farm is a farm of turkeys, and so on: a reserve system is a system of reserves. IacobusAmor 16:40, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- (As in German) keyhole is the hole for a key, television set is the set for television, door handle is the handle for a door, doormat is the mat for a door, reserve system is the system of the reserve, that is why it is also called federal reserve and not federal reserves, and so on. --Alex1011 21:02, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- The singular examples are unnecessary, as the argument, by saying "many are plural," grants that some are singular. According to the Fed itself, the system handles reserves (plural); see the St. Louis Fed's research on "Reserves and Monetary Base" (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/categories/45). The English wiki has a stub on what these reserves are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_reserves. The central bank sets reserve requirements for bank reserves. IacobusAmor 21:40, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- From English wikipedia (emphasis mine): The Fed's power developed slowly in part due to an understanding at its creation that it was to function primarily as a reserve, a money-creator of last resort to prevent the downward spiral of withdrawal/withholding of funds which characterizes a monetary panic. --Alex1011 21:57, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- It should be prudent to regard the Fed itself as being more authoritative about its nature than the English Wikipedia is, but even the English wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System) recognizes that the term is plural (emphasis added): "This is the rate that banks charge each other for overnight loans of federal funds, which are the reserves held by banks at the Fed. . . . The dividends paid by the Federal Reserve Banks to member banks are considered partial compensation for the lack of interest paid on member banks' required reserves held at the Federal Reserve Banks. By law, banks in the United States must maintain fractional reserves, most of which are kept on account at the Fed. . . . The Fed regulates banks' fractional reserves—the portion of their deposits that banks must keep, on hand or at the Fed, as reserves to satisfy any demands for withdrawal. This directly affects the banks' ability to make loans, since loans cannot be made out of reserves." Clearly, the system involves piles & piles of reserves. IacobusAmor 00:30, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- 1) This discussion of singular or plural is in that sense futile, that the present solution systema aerarium (adjective) foederale allows for both interpratations, "reserve system" as organising the reserves of the banks, or "reserve system" as the reserve for cases of emergency, which was the historical context of the foundation of the fed. The fed is also the reserve system in the sense that it can print money, if need be, it does not need any reserves from private banks.
2) The second term in use is "federal reserve" (like in Latin aerarium (this time as noun) foederale), which is singular. --Alex1011 07:41, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- 1) This discussion of singular or plural is in that sense futile, that the present solution systema aerarium (adjective) foederale allows for both interpratations, "reserve system" as organising the reserves of the banks, or "reserve system" as the reserve for cases of emergency, which was the historical context of the foundation of the fed. The fed is also the reserve system in the sense that it can print money, if need be, it does not need any reserves from private banks.
- It should be prudent to regard the Fed itself as being more authoritative about its nature than the English Wikipedia is, but even the English wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System) recognizes that the term is plural (emphasis added): "This is the rate that banks charge each other for overnight loans of federal funds, which are the reserves held by banks at the Fed. . . . The dividends paid by the Federal Reserve Banks to member banks are considered partial compensation for the lack of interest paid on member banks' required reserves held at the Federal Reserve Banks. By law, banks in the United States must maintain fractional reserves, most of which are kept on account at the Fed. . . . The Fed regulates banks' fractional reserves—the portion of their deposits that banks must keep, on hand or at the Fed, as reserves to satisfy any demands for withdrawal. This directly affects the banks' ability to make loans, since loans cannot be made out of reserves." Clearly, the system involves piles & piles of reserves. IacobusAmor 00:30, 21 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- From English wikipedia (emphasis mine): The Fed's power developed slowly in part due to an understanding at its creation that it was to function primarily as a reserve, a money-creator of last resort to prevent the downward spiral of withdrawal/withholding of funds which characterizes a monetary panic. --Alex1011 21:57, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- The singular examples are unnecessary, as the argument, by saying "many are plural," grants that some are singular. According to the Fed itself, the system handles reserves (plural); see the St. Louis Fed's research on "Reserves and Monetary Base" (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/categories/45). The English wiki has a stub on what these reserves are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_reserves. The central bank sets reserve requirements for bank reserves. IacobusAmor 21:40, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- (As in German) keyhole is the hole for a key, television set is the set for television, door handle is the handle for a door, doormat is the mat for a door, reserve system is the system of the reserve, that is why it is also called federal reserve and not federal reserves, and so on. --Alex1011 21:02, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
By the way: In English it is "Ben Bernanke" and there is some discussion there about the pro and cons to name "Shalom". --Alex1011 15:58, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- Ask Ioscius: he's pointed out, IIRC, that Vicipaedia's style is to give full names for lemmas and other names later. This means, I suppose, that the right beginning would be "Benus Shalom Bernanke, dictus Ben Bernanke," just as Vicipaedia's article on the poet known as Hugh MacDiarmid would begin "Christophorus Murray Grieve, dictus Hugh MacDiarmid, fuit poeta Britannicus. . . ." That is, if Benus is right for Ben. Has anybody examined his birth certificate to be sure his legal name isn't Benjamin? IacobusAmor 16:40, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- I refer again to discussion on English wikipedia. --Alex1011 21:02, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
It is a system in the sense that "in form" it is a system of several local banks, which form a system. ("In content" however, it works like a central national bank.) --Alex1011 16:05, 20 Augusti 2007 (UTC)