Disputatio:Municipium
Contrarium in se est, sicut "urbs rustica"... AnonMoos 23:45, 30 Septembris 2006 (UTC) ...scilicet nomen vetus "pagus urbanus" --Alex1011 18:43, 12 Novembris 2006 (UTC)
Kreisfreie Stadt[fontem recensere]
It seems to me that "Independens urbs" is problematic in two respects: (1) This title is an interpretatio Anglica of a German institution; in order to understand what kreisfreie Stadt is about, you have to understand the institutional concept of Landkreis; (2) if memory serves, we've discussed the adjective "independens" earlier, the upshot being that it's not Ciceronian Latin (whereas e.g. liber or sui iuris are). -- But I suggest we'd ask Alex's opinion on this. --Neander 23:46, 31 Octobris 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. It is my anglocentric interpretation of the name and is most certainly me in a rush. I'll put a note in Alex's talk page directing him to here. From a little help from Words (see the bottom definition), I think that Municipium liberum would be more suitable. All this page-moving I keep doing everywhere is because I'm planning to make the subdivision pages more uniform. I'm not just going mad! Harrissimo.
- In Finnish, "aina roiskuu kun rapataan" (more or less, "it always spatters when you're plastering a wall"). You're doing good work, Harrissimo. --Neander 22:29, 1 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I wanted to move "pagus" to "circulus", more litteral translation, and I think also attested. kreisfreie Stadt, litterally "oppidum circulo carens" I would now translate as "circulus urbanus" - Stadtkreis. Landkreis would then be "circulus ruralis/rusticanus"--Alex1011 22:46, 1 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- Circulus = zone, assembly [1]. Harrissimo.
- Well, I wanted to move "pagus" to "circulus", more litteral translation, and I think also attested. kreisfreie Stadt, litterally "oppidum circulo carens" I would now translate as "circulus urbanus" - Stadtkreis. Landkreis would then be "circulus ruralis/rusticanus"--Alex1011 22:46, 1 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- In Finnish, "aina roiskuu kun rapataan" (more or less, "it always spatters when you're plastering a wall"). You're doing good work, Harrissimo. --Neander 22:29, 1 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
German subdivisions[fontem recensere]
The German subdivisions as they exist, courtesy of Alex:
- L: Res publica foederalis - D: Bundesrepublik - E: Federal republic?
- L: Terra foederalis - D: Bundesland - E: Federal land?
- L: Terra terrestris - D: Flächenland
- L: Terra urbana - D: Stadtstaat
I'm no expert on this, but "terra terrestris" and "terra urbana", though more or less literal translations, somewhat fail to tell what they're all about. Isn't "Stadtstaat" functionally or juridically urbs sui iuris? Couldn't the tautophonous "terra terrestris" be rendered as terra regionalis? Notice that I'm not urging my opinions here, just questioning. --Neander 04:25, 2 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- L: Provincia (pars terrae terrestris) - D: Regierungsbezirk
- L: Pagus - D: Kreis - E: State
- L: Pagus terrestris - D: Kreis - E: District
- L: Municipium pago carens → ? - D: kreisfreie Stadt
- L: Commune - D: Gemeinde - E: municipality
Questions and notes: 1. Why commune rather than municipium? 2. This page should be about the English concept of independent city, including the Kreisfreie Stadte as a sub-section. (like this one). The whole page called Municipium liberum, but using a German translation explanation in the necessary section? 3. Is it pagus or pagus terrestris which would be better as circulus ? - see image below 4. There is the page Index regionum (Germaniae). Which subdivision is this themed on? Is regio used in German subdivisions? 5. Last of all: In which names have I gone wrong on the image below? Harrissimo.
1. "commune" is "commune, Gemeinde, Kommune". Municipium is capital town of circulus or town which is its own circulus, like Stuttgart.
2. oppidum circulo carens. "free" or "independent" is somewhat wrong here, because these towns are neither free nor independent, but simply are so large, that they have no "Landkreis", they are their own "circulus".
3. Circulus is attested for administrative region in Germany: [2] . I would now use "circulus" istead of "pagus" for "Kreis" to name the modern "Kreise".
"Flächenstaat" litterally is "terra arealis". Stadtstaat: Terra urbana or simply Civitas. --Alex1011 16:46, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
--Alex1011 16:20, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- I saw the lines: "L: Commune - D: Gemeinde - E: municipality ... Why commune rather than municipium?" Here's a kind of answer. 1. Gemeinde is linked to the German adjective gemein which means "common". 2. Municipality isn't used in Britain or the US (I think) as the term for an administrative subdivision; it's a rather vague word in English (I think), but it happens to have been adopted by some people as an English translation for various names of small administrative subdivisions in central and eastern Europe. But, anyway, 3. we're doing Latin, not English. In Latin, municipium doesn't fit Gemeinde because the Latin word means a city with special status, something much more urban and rather more important than the average Gemeinde: in fact, more like a kreisfreie Stadt. 4. On the other hand, commune does work (hence we use it also in articles about France and Greece) because it has roughly the same etymological meaning as "Gemeinde" (and French "commune" and Greek κοινοτήτα).
- "This page should be about the English concept of independent city." Why? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 17:23, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- I'll try to explain myself... [3] doesn't seem to make much of a distinction between independent city and kreisfreie Stadt. That is why I thought they should all be under one roof. I shy away from using commune because I haven't yet seen a definition of it meaning the subdivision, more often meaning something like Vicimedia Communia where there is a common goal through participation. See [4]. Obviously, all of this is all very confusing as can be seen from all the links everywhere and lists, tables, categories on English wikipedia. That is why I made the image, to avoid inconsistency and will soon be creating a table for all country subdivisions. Just as this is "Latin, not English" it is not German either and although oppidum circulo carens is a good translation, I think it is too hefty. Can we not find a one (or two) word concept? Must we have different pages for "independent city" and "Kreisfreie Stadt" and the other concepts in the link above. The way I see it, the less of these pages, the less of a confusion there will be. Harrissimo.
- In Stowasser is for "commune": 2. occ. Gemeinwesen, Kommune and example "commune Cretensium". In the modern sense it is somewhat of a neologism.
For the litteral translation "oppidum circulo or pago carens" I now use in the Box "Commune Germaniae" circulus urbanus - Stadtkreis vs. circulus rusticus.
For "municipium" I find "free town, rural town". "Municipium liberum" would be then double. --Alex1011 20:15, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)- Alex's circulus urbanus vs. circulus rusticus correspond very nicely to the older English subdivisions called "rural districts" and "urban districts".
- Yes, Harrissimo, I see what you mean. You're right, we're not doing German either! But who in English uses the concept "independent city"? I've never heard the expression. It sounds like a city-state, ancient Athens or modern Singapore. It's quite incorrect (I think) for a city which belongs to a nation and a state but simply isn't part of a low-level administrative structure. That's not independence, nor even autonomy.
- You have set yourself quite a nice little problem in describing concepts that have grown up, or been set up, in various different languages, all in Latin in a unified way. This page will be worth watching! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 11:15, 5 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- What do you think? This new page ties together 2 or 3 English pages (which may be an interwiki problem). But it simplifies things and across the nations, they are all pretty much the same concept anyway - just with different names. Harrissimo 18:18, 1 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).
- In Stowasser is for "commune": 2. occ. Gemeinwesen, Kommune and example "commune Cretensium". In the modern sense it is somewhat of a neologism.
- I'll try to explain myself... [3] doesn't seem to make much of a distinction between independent city and kreisfreie Stadt. That is why I thought they should all be under one roof. I shy away from using commune because I haven't yet seen a definition of it meaning the subdivision, more often meaning something like Vicimedia Communia where there is a common goal through participation. See [4]. Obviously, all of this is all very confusing as can be seen from all the links everywhere and lists, tables, categories on English wikipedia. That is why I made the image, to avoid inconsistency and will soon be creating a table for all country subdivisions. Just as this is "Latin, not English" it is not German either and although oppidum circulo carens is a good translation, I think it is too hefty. Can we not find a one (or two) word concept? Must we have different pages for "independent city" and "Kreisfreie Stadt" and the other concepts in the link above. The way I see it, the less of these pages, the less of a confusion there will be. Harrissimo.