Disputatio:Maia Jemison

Please don't blame me for this article, I only tried to fix it! Pantocrator 00:06, 18 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Graduata est ab . . . Universitate[fontem recensere]

Anglice: 'She was degreed by the university'. ;) Why say it in such a curious way? IacobusAmor 17:39, 23 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the original creator had gressus est, and I at least improved on that (and got the right gender!). I believe graduatus est should be the normal way of saying 'graduated from' in Latin. It is passive since the university is doing the graduating - formal English used to say 'was graduated from'. Pantocrator 22:55, 23 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gradior 'I step, I walk' is a deponent verb, so gressus est should mean 'he stepped, he walked'. A verb graduare isn't in Cassell's, so maybe it's a medievalism. Just because English may say 'she was graduated from X' doesn't mean that Latin prefers to say it that way. Perhaps it's more idiomatic to make her an indirect object and say 'X ei gradum [+ the name of the degree] concessit' or something else entirely. Neander may be able to help. IacobusAmor 02:13, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is a mediaevalism, but then universities are a mediaeval invention. Google Books shows several hits for graduatus est in various cases. Pantocrator 02:32, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Google shows a handful of instances of it. IacobusAmor 02:49, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't know how to say 'African-American'. In the first sentence I changed it to negra, but that might be seen as a racial slur (is it?). Pantocrator 22:55, 23 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you get negra from? A Latin nominative singular feminine word for 'black' is nigra. IacobusAmor 02:13, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Pantocrator 02:32, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Finally in spatia caela (outer space) is my replacement for the original in tracto Niso, which seems unintelligible. Pantocrator 22:55, 23 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you get caela 'outer' from? It's not an adjective, but a neuter plural noun, 'heavens, climates'. The examples in Cassell's don't show its use in the plural, but no matter: as a noun, it can't modify a noun in the same case (spatia 'spaces, distances'). IacobusAmor 02:13, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spatia exterior ? Pantocrator 02:32, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

spatia is plural, but exterior is singular: the one can't modify the other. IacobusAmor 02:44, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look, if there's a commonly used Latin term for 'outer space', you ought to just tell me or change it yourself. By not doing so you're inviting me to come up with one myself.

Indeed, 'spatia' is plural; I didn't know that, since Eng. '-ce' regularly corresponds to Latin -tia (singular). But the plural use is, I think, more appropriate to the meaning in this case, and Latin is usually careful to use the plural in such cases; so I would keep it. As for the adjective, although 'outer' in English is a comparative, it no longer has a positive Pantocrator 03:06, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How nice for you that you've never been in an "out group," or known or conceived of anyone who has, and have never been the object of someone "out for revenge!" IacobusAmor 14:01, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In neither of those does 'out' have a spatial meaning, which 'outer' does have. Further those current uses of adjective 'out' are not comparable, and thus could not be the positive grade of 'outer'. Pantocrator 14:26, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(nor does the analogous 'inner' - 'in' as an adjective survives only in non-spatial use) and is probably not felt as having necessarily that force. In such a common collocation, therefore, the shorter spatia extera is better than the longer spatia exteriores, and is my choice. Pantocrator 03:06, 24 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The reason we need the comparative is that outer space is farther out than what might be called inner space: it's the space beyond a certain distance (variously defined) from the surface of any celestial body. IacobusAmor 14:01, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The comparative spatia exteriora is fine too. But it is not needed as the phrase is hardly ambiguous in context. Pantocrator 14:26, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just about anything in the world is better than spatia exteriores, which again/still you can't seem to mach in gender. Egger of course has spatium cosmicum which I confess that I don't love.

Why again do you "prefer" the plural here?

Incidentally we play this game when I teach 6th grade Latin, usually the 2nd week of class: which English words that end in -ce correspond to to -tia in Latin. --Ioscius^∞ 21:44, 25 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-ce may correspond to -tia singular sometimes, but that doesn't keep it at all from also corresponding to -tium (in words like interstice, divorce, vice, ~~sesterce~~, solstice, prepuce, service, palace...). 'Spatium cosmicum' (which I was going to mention as well) does lack poetry, but then, beggars can't be choosers. —Mucius Tever 05:25, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionaries define cosmicum differently from any sense that could apply in spatium cosmicum. The reason I advocate the plural is that space seems like a plural concept to me e.g. 'the spaces between the stars'. You are right that I was hasty in assuming the gender; I think there is a general rule that can be applied in the case of -tium vs. -tia but I'm not sure. Pantocrator 06:44, 26 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know; it seems like a lot more than "the spaces between the stars" to me; it's more like the space the stars are in. As for cosmicum it's true it may not jive very well with the common senses of the word; can you cite something apter? Surely the uranographers must have had some name for it. —Mucius Tever 18:39, 27 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've just made Categoria:Itinera caelestia for space travel/voyages (I wanted a supercategory for Categoria:Astronautae, needed on this page). So, what about "spatium caeleste", heavenly space? More Latin than "cosmicum". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 18:44, 27 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is one of the options I considered; better than cosmicum I suppose. Google seems to suggest that if there was any form including spatium before 1950 it was that; for clarity, we can't use the simple caelum which would be the real classical form. Pantocrator 19:50, 27 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

----

"Spatium caeleste" does exist; seems rare though, for something that should be an old concept. It looks like our term "outer space" is itself relatively recent (en.wiki, FWIW, puts it at the late 19th or early 20th century), so a different term must have been used before then, if there was any fixed name for it at all. This might take more searching. The Greek is διάστημα; Apollinaris Sidonius (5th c.) spoke of diastemata zodiaca, but that's the only example I have in my files. Cicero speaks of ardor caelestis "qui aether vel caelum nominatur"; he states that sidera aetherium locum optinent (Yonge translates: "the stars are situated in the ethereal space"); there are probably more options... —Mucius Tever 00:27, 28 Februarii 2010 (UTC)[reply]