Disputatio:Iter Neocatechumenale

Iter est substantivum neutrum; Neocatechumenalis est adiectivum masculinum vel femininum. IacobusAmor 00:23, 30 Maii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quaestiones de POV iam manent. IacobusAmor 21:23, 30 Maii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Confer en:[fontem recensere]

Confer en:

"The Neocatechumenal Way is an entity within the Catholic Church dedicated to the Christian formation of adults."

Hic: "Iter neocatechumenale est initiatio Christiana quæ ministerio Episcoporum est."

= "The neocatechumenal way is a christian initiating which the Bishops' ministry possesses."

Quid est rectius? 63.3.2.1 01:38, 3 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the English (at the English wiki also) wrong , not entity bu initiative?

"The Neocatechumenal Way is an ~~entity~~initiative within the Catholic Church dedicated to the Christian formation of adults."--Jondel 05:03, 3 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quid significat hoc commentationis Latinae exordium? Quod non intelligo quomodo ad episcopos attineat quidve velit "initiationis" vox (quod Latine designat mysteria occulta, ut apud Suet. Ner. 34.4).--84.190.26.145 05:18, 3 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The English at en:wiki is OK grammatically, but it is too vague to be translated precisely. Entities and initiatives are different things, but they are both buzzwords without clear meanings. This is perhaps a society? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:14, 3 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vicipaedia Theodisca dicit hanc rem esse "eine Neue Geistliche Bewegung," Latine (existimo) novus animi motus. Exordium a nostro usore ignoto compositum ("initiatio Christiana quæ ministerio Episcoporum est") ego quoque non intellego. Vide infra. IacobusAmor 03:28, 4 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aliae comparationes[fontem recensere]

Hispanice:

El Camino neocatecumenal es un itinerario de formación cristiana dentro de la Iglesia católica.

Theodisce:

Der Neokatechumenale Weg, auch Neokatechumenat, ist eine Neue Geistliche Bewegung in der Römisch-Katholischen Kirche, die 1964 von dem spanischen Künstler und Katholiken Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández und Pater Mario Pezzi in Madrid mit dem Ziel einer Rechristianisierung des heidnischen Europas gegründet worden ist.

The German is clearly the fullest and probably the best. Ergo:

Iter Neocatechumenale, etiam Neocatechumenatus, est novus animi motus in Ecclesia Catholica Romana, qui Matriti anno 1964 a Kiko Argüello, pictore Hispanico, Carmine Hernández, et Patre Mario Pezzi, cupidis Europaeorum paganorum ad Christum convertendorum, conditus est.

Anglice = The Neocatechumenical Way, also the Neocatechumenate, in the Roman Catholic Church is a new spiritual movement, which the Spanish painter Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández, and Father Mario Pezzi, desirous of converting heathen Europeans to Christ, founded at Madrid in 1964.

I assume that the adjective for 'desirous' wants to be ablative plural in agreement with the ablatives introduced by a. Of course other constructions indicating purpose are possible (e.g., an ut-clause, with the verb in the passive), but this one seems the most succinct, and it has the advantage of keeping the focus on the founders. Bradley's Arnold says (#395) "the gerundive construction is, in general, preferred to a gerund with an accusatve" ('cupidis convertendi Europaeos paganos ad Christum'). I take it that convertere = 'turn back, reconvert', but there may be a better Latin idiom with some sense of the basic English 'bring back (to)'. IacobusAmor 12:23, 3 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Novae comparationes[fontem recensere]

Violentis mutationibus ab hoc commentario in Vicipaedia Anglica sustentis, nostrum commentarium correctiones probabiliter requirit. Vide varia commentaria:

Nostrum commentarium:

Iter neocatechumenale est initiatio Christiana quæ ministerio Episcoporum est. Sancta Sedes definit hoc Ministerium sicut "itinerarius formationis Catholicæ, validus pro societate et pro temporibus hodiernis". Non fructus consilii pastoralis est, sed decretum mirum et gratuitum Dei.

Vicipaediam Anglicam:

The Neocatechumenal Way is an entity within the Catholic Church dedicated to the Christian formation of adults. Taking its inspiration from the catechumenate of the Early Church, by which converts from paganism were prepared for baptism, it provides a post-baptismal catechumenate to adults who are already members of the Church. The Neocatechumenate was initiated in 1964 by the Spanish painter Francisco (Kiko) Argüello as a response to the Second Vatican Council.

Vicipaediam Hispanicam:

El Camino neocatecumenal es un itinerario de formación cristiana dentro de la Iglesia católica. Sus iniciadores son los laicos españoles: Francisco José Argüello (más conocido como Kiko Argüello), Carmen Hernández y el sacerdote Italiano Mario Pezzi. La Santa Sede lo define como "un itinerario de formación Católica, válido para la sociedad y para los tiempos de hoy".

Vicipaediam Italicam:

Il Cammino Neocatecumenale è un itinerario di formazione cattolica nato in Spagna nella metà degli anni sessanta del Novecento su iniziativa del pittore Kiko Argüello e di Carmen Hernández. È un itinerario di fede che si prefigge la riscoperta del battesimo.

Vicipaediam Francicam:

Le Chemin néocatéchuménal est un mouvement de l'Église catholique créé à Madrid en 1964 par le peintre espagnol Kiko Argüello. . . . Ce mouvement a été créé en réponse au concile Vatican II et prône une réaction de l’Église face aux changements sociaux de la fin du XIXe siècle et du XXe siècle (en particulier la laïcité) et un retour aux enseignements des anciens chrétiens.

Vicipaediam Theodiscam:

Der Neokatechumenale Weg, auch Neokatechumenat, ist eine Neue Geistliche Bewegung in der Römisch-Katholischen Kirche, die 1964 von dem spanischen Künstler und Katholiken Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández und Pater Mario Pezzi in Madrid mit dem Ziel einer Rechristianisierung des heidnischen Europas gegründet worden ist.

Commentarium in nostra Vicipaedia sane est tenuissima et opinionis (POV) repletissima; ergo novum propono initium:

Iter Neocatechumenale, etiam Neocatechumenatus, est novus animi motus in Ecclesia Catholica Romana, qui Matriti anno 1964 a Kiko Argüello, pictore Hispanico, Carmine Hernández, et Patre Mario Pezzi, tactis a sacrarum apud Concilium Vaticanum Secundum rerum progressione, et recens cupidis Europaeorum paganorum ad Christum convertendorum, conditus est.

Quod Anglice fortasse legitur:

The Neocatechumenical Way, also the Neocatechumenate, in the Roman Catholic Church is a new spiritual movement, which the Spanish painter Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández, and Father Mario Pezzi, inspired by the spiritual development of the Second Vatican Council, and freshly desirous of converting heathen Europeans to Christ, founded at Madrid in 1964.

Quis vult opem ferre? IacobusAmor 19:53, 8 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ego. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:18, 13 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From bad to worse[fontem recensere]

Care usor 201.145.6.3, almost every one of your numerous changes today has made the Latinity and the content worse. Perhaps this article should be deleted until such time as a fair-minded version, in good Latinity, can be inserted. IacobusAmor 00:04, 25 Iunii 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exordium[fontem recensere]

Exordium, merus horror—"Iter Neocatechumenale, est initiatio Christiana quae ministerio Episcoporum est.—tandem correximus. POV sententiam—"Non fructus consilii pastoralis, sed sponte mirum et gratuitum Dei est."—delevimus. IacobusAmor 13:28, 24 Novembris 2008 (UTC)[reply]