Disputatio:Carolus III (rex Britanniarum)

The traditional title has been "Walliae Princeps", not "Princeps Cambriae": e.g. here or here or here.

Also -- Artorius? That is a modern academic reconstruction, not the traditional equivalent, which was Arturus (as it appears, e.g., in Geoffrey's "History", or as the name of the 12th century Duke of Brittany).CriticusFortuitus 02:54, 22 Aprilis 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made it "princeps Walliae": this word order is also often found in documents, and it corresponds with our usual form for titles and lemmas. There is no point in Latinizing all his Christian names (unless there is a Latin source that does it for us) so I turned them back to English. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:31, 2 Maii 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Charles vs Carolus[fontem recensere]

The first coins of the pound sterling featuring Charles III entered circulation in December. The inscription reads: "Charles III D. G. Rex F. D."

Perhaps we should take this as an indication that the ‘official’ Latin name of Charles is simply Charles, an indeclinable: Elizabeth's name just happened to be the same in both English and Latin; previous monarchs had Latinized names on their coins.

For what it’s worth, among other languages, it appears that the tradition of translating regnal names has also been quietly dropped during Elizabeth's reign. He is consistently called Charles and not Karl in the German media. Daphne Preston-Kendal (disputatio) 15:13, 31 Martii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Daphne Preston-Kendal: It's a good point and is to be carefully noted. Likewise there is one editor of classical texts with Latin title pages who does not give herself a Latin forename. She and king Charles are, for the moment, in the same small minority: there are many other monarchs and many other editors of modern Latin texts who continue the usual multilingual pattern. Not to mention popes. In the particular case of Charles, we should look for other evidence, especially any evidence that he is offended by the use of other-language versions of his name.

Some people certainly think that other people should have only one written name -- I've always supposed that this feeling is not independent of the spread of nationalism, nation states, and national languages, but I don't have any evidence for that. Some people feel that way about places, too: there was a move to make Côte d'Ivoire the only name in the Latin alphabet for that West African country, and in the same way Myanmar is now written in many languages that happen to use the Latin alphabet. Yet I don't think there has been any pressure to pronounce these names the "right" way (relatively difficult in both cases): writing is more regimented than speech, for the time being.

Personally I feel we Latinists are very lucky to be writing a language that is -- in general, with exceptions -- not official. Esperantists are lucky too (see Karlo la 3-a), and so are those who write minority languages such as Catalan and Welsh (see Carles III and Siarl III). I'd say that this group is a better model for us, if we look for a model at all, than English and German. Let's remain among the lucky ones :) Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 14:00, 1 Aprilis 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Phew! His full name and titles are given in Burke's Peerage: see footnote 1 on our page. "Carolus" is confirmed. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:11, 1 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not my king!! Nam ego "meum" Carolum I praefero, imperatorem. Ille, qui etiam beatus, sine ullo dubio Latini fautor summus erat. Fortasse dependet num dominus Charles Britanniarum Latina diligit necne. Sed iste vir Latina spernere mihi videtur. Argumentum de Elisabetha falsum est, quia nomina Hebraica generatim declinari non debent. Insuper versionem vernaculissimam Charles etiam Francogallice interpretari possimus ... Num etiam formula "defensor fidei" nunc perditur et ex nunc officialiter Anglice fides in mundo defendetur?????????? - Giorno2 (disputatio) 17:33, 14 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“it appears that the tradition of translating regnal names has also been quietly dropped during Elizabeth's reign. He is consistently called Charles and not Karl in the German media.” Carlo III (“terzo”) is how he is called in the Italian media. My guess is that Carlos is how the Spanish media call him. In France they pronounce it in French. German language instead is in a strange position today, because it has become in general very inclined to welcoming English words as they are, and not just king names. Latin, on the other hand, has always been in average more reluctant to introducing foreign words that are not declinable, for obvious reasons. --Grufo (disputatio) 17:55, 14 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quod ad ultimam sententiam tuam attinet: In Biblia permulta nomina, praesertim Veteris Testamenti, declinatione carent ... - Giorno2 (disputatio) 20:05, 14 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Verum est. At fortasse nomina biblica declinatione carent quia saepe a hominibus non Romanis in sermonem Latinum versa sunt, cum alia nomina – e.g. Gallica (a Caesare), vel Germanica (a Tacito), etc. – a hominibus indigenis versa sint. Aut fortasse id factus est quia nomina Hebraica primum in sermonem Graecum sine declinatione, et demum a Graeco in Latinum etiam sine declinatione versa sunt. Veram causam ignoro, sed nomina barbara sine declinatione non fuerunt norma (Biblia exclusa). --Grufo (disputatio) 21:29, 14 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Textus e translatione Google nuper additus[fontem recensere]

I deleted the new text from the article for several reasons:

It included an introductory section which contained a lot of errors, replacing what we already had, which was much too short but, as far as it went, correct
It had not been adapted to Wikipedia style (footnotes not working, use of Roman numerals, etc.)
It contained many errors, was enormously long, and would need a great deal of human effort to correct

If a human who knows Latin is intending to continue working on this text, that's great. Here it is below, and it can be corrected and transferred to the encyclopedia page bit by bit when it makes good sense. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:14, 25 Maii 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nemo respondit, nemo correctiones facere coepit; ergo textum haud Latinum hodie delevi. Si quis inspicere vult, licet per historiam huius paginae textum reperire. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:14, 14 Iunii 2023 (UTC)[reply]