Disputatio:Comprehensio Christi (Caravaggio)
(Redirectum de Disputatio:Captura Christi (Caravaggio))
Titulus[fontem recensere]
Fortasse "Christus captus (Caravaggio)"? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 07:15, 7 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
- Sane! ne forte "Comprehensio Christi" vel "Captura Christi." IacobusAmor 11:56, 7 Augusti 2008 (UTC)
- I think captus -us, 4 th declension's means, according to words: "capacity/ability/potentiality; comprehension; action/result of taking/grasping;" whereas captura is better because its meaning is more directly related "taking/catching wild game; bag, total game caught; gain, take; making profits;" and also is closer to the original romance language name.--Rafaelgarcia 20:34, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- My impression of these fourth-declension -us nouns formed from verbs is that they're rather like the -tio suffix in that they basically indicate a process, the action of the verb. So ludere is 'to play', but lusus, -us is the playing, while ludus, -i is the game. And in this case, capere is 'to seize', but captus, -us (and captio, -onis) is the seizing, while captura is the seizure, the result of the seizing. On the contrary, we can think of counterexamples (canere; cantus, -us?). Maybe a linguist will step in and help us out here. ¶ The reason I raised this question (above) is that in the original pattern, Christus captus, the captus is a participle ('Christ seized'); of course that too may be acceptable, and one wonders if critics' accounts (say, from the seventeenth century) attest the Latin name of the picture. IacobusAmor 20:52, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you guessed, "Christ seized" was what I meant by my suggestion: not captus n. but captus p. p. p.. That's what I would have called the painting in Latin. Cf. Italian "Gierusalemme liberata", for which the most natural English phrase is "The Liberation of Jerusalem". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:37, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- Consentio "Christus captus" melius sonare quam "Captura Christi" et "Captus Christi." Quamobrem minime adversor ne nomen ad "Christus captus" commutetur. --Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- Postquam eum scripsi, nunc dissentio. Pictura est de captura (seizure, the fact, the moment), quam Romani milites perficerunt, nec de Christo capto (Christ who was captured, the man), nec de captu/captione (the seizing/capturing, the action). Ergo nomen "Captura Christi" nunc iterum puto melius est.--Rafaelgarcia 23:39, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- Consentio "Christus captus" melius sonare quam "Captura Christi" et "Captus Christi." Quamobrem minime adversor ne nomen ad "Christus captus" commutetur. --Rafaelgarcia 23:20, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you guessed, "Christ seized" was what I meant by my suggestion: not captus n. but captus p. p. p.. That's what I would have called the painting in Latin. Cf. Italian "Gierusalemme liberata", for which the most natural English phrase is "The Liberation of Jerusalem". Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:37, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- My impression of these fourth-declension -us nouns formed from verbs is that they're rather like the -tio suffix in that they basically indicate a process, the action of the verb. So ludere is 'to play', but lusus, -us is the playing, while ludus, -i is the game. And in this case, capere is 'to seize', but captus, -us (and captio, -onis) is the seizing, while captura is the seizure, the result of the seizing. On the contrary, we can think of counterexamples (canere; cantus, -us?). Maybe a linguist will step in and help us out here. ¶ The reason I raised this question (above) is that in the original pattern, Christus captus, the captus is a participle ('Christ seized'); of course that too may be acceptable, and one wonders if critics' accounts (say, from the seventeenth century) attest the Latin name of the picture. IacobusAmor 20:52, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
- I think captus -us, 4 th declension's means, according to words: "capacity/ability/potentiality; comprehension; action/result of taking/grasping;" whereas captura is better because its meaning is more directly related "taking/catching wild game; bag, total game caught; gain, take; making profits;" and also is closer to the original romance language name.--Rafaelgarcia 20:34, 9 Decembris 2008 (UTC)
iterum de titulo[fontem recensere]
Vocabulum captura in latinitate antiqua non idem significat ac e.g. vocabulum anglicum capture. Nonne manus afferre alicui ut in carcerem abducatur est aliquem comprehendere? Etiam in evangeliis ita scriptum est: apud Lucam (22,54) 'comprehendentes autem eum' et apud Ioannem (18,13) 'comprehenderunt Iesum'. Cur ergo hanc imaginem non Comprehensio Iesu dicimus? --Bavarese (disputatio) 10:57, 2 Iulii 2016 (UTC)
- Cur non? Id iamdudum Iacobus proposuit. Per me paginam move! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 12:32, 2 Iulii 2016 (UTC)